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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject: Evangelising in the Classroom? |
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I did not want to hijack this thread (Theist, Agnostic, or Atheist & Why?). The discussion took a detour around here.
I've reprinted what I think are all of the quotes relevent to the discussion.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
I am teaching Narnia to my kids and its at the
part where Aslan has to die for Edmund. The victory seems lost, that there isn't any hope. But wait, what's that I hear? It's the lion of Judah who is
coming to redeem the earth. Those who have been caught in the witch's spell. |
Are these Sunday School students or English as a Second Language students? |
 |
Please answer the question.
If your students are ESL students, then it is your job to teach them English. Period.
Of course, they need to practice their speaking skills, and many topics are likely to be discussed, and many different opinions expressed.
However, their religious beliefs are their private business, and if they happen to come up in class, they must be respected.
To use ESL as a front for indoctrinating young, impressionable students is both unprofessional and unethical. |
Actually, now that you have caught me, I will let you in on my plan.
In our main class, I ordered an olmypic sized swimming pool for mass baptisms.
In the TV room, we have Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson and Bill O Reilly on for 24/7 for mass indoctrination class.
In the gogo room is evangelism class. There they learn how to run, tackle and jump on people and force them literature.
Finally, for lunch, we have holy manna hana bread and drink grape juice. Squeezed, not processed, because that would be a sin. |
| tomato wrote: |
I'm not sure about that, Troll Bait.
I share your antipathy toward indoctrinating kids, but I can also see another side.
There must be something in Lewis's writings which renders them adaptable for ESL class, because one of the teachers in my last school used that book too.
I don't believe in Christianity either, but I believe in good literature.
Same way with music.
My violin teacher was a Russian Jew, but he was always on hand whenever a local church was rounding up an orchestra for a Christmas oratorio.
Kurt Weill was a Communist, which is probably why all of his operas portray businessmen as villains.
If I were asked to take part in a production of one of his operas, I probably would.
I don't believe in Communism, but I believe in good music. |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
Tomato:
The Narnia stories are good, and I have no problem with them being used as reading or listening exercises or even just as a way to keep the students
interested. I think that they could potentially be very useful to ESL teachers. My concern is how they are being used.
For example, Fiveeagles recently started this thread (Are you going to Heaven?). I
wonder if he starts similar discussions in his classrooms, in which the only answers he'll accept are Christian ones. And what does he do if a student gives
an answer that he doesn't like? Will he respect it? If a student said, "I don't believe in Heaven. I believe in reincarnation," what would he do? Would
he do what he did to me, and disrespect him, dismiss his opinion, and accuse him of thinking that he's God? |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
To use ESL as a front for indoctrinating young, impressionable students is both unprofessional and
unethical. |
Of course it is, but that won't stop rabid fundamentalist nutters from spreading thier poison though... |
It can be stopped if teachers are disciplined.
It's unfortunate that adults teachers might have to be treated like children, with boundaries drawn and enforced, but some people either have poor self-
control or a weak sense of ethics. |
| Satori wrote: |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
Tomato:
The Narnia stories are good, and I have no problem with them being used as reading or listening exercises or even just as a way to keep the students
interested. I think that they could potentially be very useful to ESL teachers. My concern is how they are being used.
For example, Fiveeagles recently started this thread (Are you going to Heaven?). I
wonder if he starts similar discussions in his classrooms, in which the only answers he'll accept are Christian ones. And what does he do if a student gives
an answer that he doesn't like? Will he respect it? If a student said, "I don't believe in Heaven. I believe in reincarnation," what would he do? Would
he do what he did to me, and disrespect him, dismiss his opinion, and accuse him of thinking that he's God? |
When I was 6 we had bible class in school. My dad was into zen meditation. So one time during questions, I asked, what about meditation? And the teacher said
"Meditation is evil because it opens up your mind so that satan can come in". I told my folks, who then had a little chat to the school, and from then on I
got to go to the library and read Asterix books while the other kids got bible class. F*cking primo that was!!! |
| Maserial wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Actually, now that you have caught me, I will let you in on my plan.
In our main class, I ordered an olmypic sized swimming pool for mass baptisms.
In the TV room, we have Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson and Bill O Reilly on for 24/7 for mass indoctrination class.
In the gogo room is evangelism class. There they learn how to run, tackle and jump on people and force them literature.
Finally, for lunch, we have holy manna hana bread and drink grape juice. Squeezed, not processed, because that would be a sin. |
That sounds like a wordy, delusive way of saying 'Yeah, I do sneak a bit of my religious beliefs upon my students, and now I'm going to use hyperbole to
derail the issue.' But that's cool; I like crap.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
I am teaching Narnia to my kids and its at the part where Aslan has to die for Edmund. The victory seems lost, that there isn't any hope.
But wait, what's that I hear? It's the lion of Judah who is coming to redeem the earth. Those who have been caught in the witch's spell. |
In the classroom, if your description of the events is similar to that in your post (replete with gratuitous, emotive language and gesture), then there is a
decent chance that your students are eating it up, because you're the funny, cool white guy.
(Please do chlorinate the pool before the mass baptism.) |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Maserial wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Actually, now that you have caught me, I will let you in on my plan.
In our main class, I ordered an olmypic sized swimming pool for mass baptisms.
In the TV room, we have Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson and Bill O Reilly on for 24/7 for mass indoctrination class.
In the gogo room is evangelism class. There they learn how to run, tackle and jump on people and force them literature.
Finally, for lunch, we have holy manna hana bread and drink grape juice. Squeezed, not processed, because that would be a sin. |
That sounds like a wordy, delusive way of saying 'Yeah, I do sneak a bit of my religious beliefs upon my students, and now I'm going to use hyperbole to
derail the issue.' But that's cool; I like crap.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
I am teaching Narnia to my kids and its at the part where Aslan has to die for Edmund. The victory seems lost, that there isn't any hope.
But wait, what's that I hear? It's the lion of Judah who is coming to redeem the earth. Those who have been caught in the witch's spell. |
In the classroom, if your description of the events is similar to that in your post (replete with gratuitous, emotive language and gesture), then there is a
decent chance that your students are eating it up, because you're the funny, cool white guy.
(Please do chlorinate the pool before the mass baptism.) |
Yeah, I do talk about God, but within boundaries, only if I feel it's fitting for the subject. Such as what is redemption, what is morality and so on. I
have made some great relationships with the kids and if they choose to follow Christ then that's a great reward of mine.
Anyway, I don't respond to Satori or Troll Bait because they have said stuff like this.
| Quote: |
You are deranged. You're unstable. You're not well."
You are the most hate filled bigot I've ever read.
Your ignorance is deep and profound, your hatred is bilious and dangerous. to Is this guy for real or what? Please, for the sake of humanity, don't have
children...
What a fruitcake...
You haven't the faintest idea what "truth" even is.
Pure and utter rubbish from you, again.
You hate yourself. And frankly I don't blame you. I suggest serious professional psychiatric help is your only option now.
I don't feel xians have the right to shove thier idiocy in my face either. |
They are more interested in censorship than freedom of speech. |
| Satori wrote: |
| I stand by everything I've said about you. There is nothing more dangerous or repulsive than a fundamentalist... |
| tomato wrote: |
On page 2, I posted a message claiming that Evoluitionary theory answered many questions about human behavior.
One of these questions was "Why is diplomacy so difficult?"
I presented examples of people insulting those with whom they disagreed.
I explained that we carried inner brains left from prehistoric times, in which we were never confronted with anyone different from ourselves except enemies
and predators.
Consequently, we attack theists, atheists, Liberals, or Conservatives,
thinking that they are enemies or predators.
On page 12, Five Eagles gave us a collection of examples:
| Quote: |
You are deranged. You're unstable. You're not well."
You are the most hate filled bigot I've ever read.
Your ignorance is deep and profound, your hatred is bilious and dangerous. to Is this guy for real or what? Please, for the sake of humanity, don't have
children...
What a fruitcake...
You haven't the faintest idea what "truth" even is.
Pure and utter rubbish from you, again.
You hate yourself. And frankly I don't blame you. I suggest serious professional psychiatric help is your only option now.
I don't feel xians have the right to shove thier idiocy in my face either. |
This collection was followed by one more example from Satori:
| Quote: |
| There is nothing more dangerous or repulsive than a fundamentalist. |
|
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Maserial wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Actually, now that you have caught me, I will let you in on my plan.
In our main class, I ordered an olmypic sized swimming pool for mass baptisms.
In the TV room, we have Benny Hinn, Pat Robertson and Bill O Reilly on for 24/7 for mass indoctrination class.
In the gogo room is evangelism class. There they learn how to run, tackle and jump on people and force them literature.
Finally, for lunch, we have holy manna hana bread and drink grape juice. Squeezed, not processed, because that would be a sin. |
That sounds like a wordy, delusive way of saying 'Yeah, I do sneak a bit of my religious beliefs upon my students, and now I'm going to use hyperbole to
derail the issue.' But that's cool; I like crap.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
I am teaching Narnia to my kids and its at the part where Aslan has to die for Edmund. The victory seems lost, that there isn't any hope.
But wait, what's that I hear? It's the lion of Judah who is coming to redeem the earth. Those who have been caught in the witch's spell. |
In the classroom, if your description of the events is similar to that in your post (replete with gratuitous, emotive language and gesture), then there is a
decent chance that your students are eating it up, because you're the funny, cool white guy.
(Please do chlorinate the pool before the mass baptism.) |
Yeah, I do talk about God, but within boundaries, only if I feel it's fitting for the subject. Such as what is redemption, what is morality and so on. I
have made some great relationships with the kids and if they choose to follow Christ then that's a great reward of mine.
Anyway, I don't respond to Satori or Troll Bait because they have said stuff like this.
| Quote: |
You are deranged. You're unstable. You're not well."
You are the most hate filled bigot I've ever read.
Your ignorance is deep and profound, your hatred is bilious and dangerous. to Is this guy for real or what? Please, for the sake of humanity, don't have
children...
What a fruitcake...
You haven't the faintest idea what "truth" even is.
Pure and utter rubbish from you, again.
You hate yourself. And frankly I don't blame you. I suggest serious professional psychiatric help is your only option now.
I don't feel xians have the right to shove thier idiocy in my face either. |
They are more interested in censorship than freedom of speech. |
If you are talking abou this forum, then maybe they are more interested in censorship, I don't follow your battles with them. But if you are talking about
bringing up God in class, ever, especially to kids in a public school setting, they are not talking about censorship, they are talking about PROFESSIONALISM.
Your political and religious views should never come out in class, especially with children. I am in the opposite situation as you.
My school is literally in the bible belt of Korea. 85% of my students are ardent Christians (well, so far as a child can be). Whenever the word church or
god come up, I explain them from a language point of view only. I never say I don't go to church when they ask, I don't say I think the bible is a boring
storybook when the subject comes up and if I ask them what they do every Sunday I don't remark at all about their beliefs but treat everything from the point
of view of a PROFESSIONAL ENGLISH TEACHER. It's not my job to save them from the idiocy of Christianity, only teach them English. It's up to their parents
to tell them about God FiveEagles, whether for or against.
Your personal views should not come up in class. If they ask about moraility, teach them what it means from an impersonal point of view if you need
examples. When you talk about your religious beliefs from your personal opinion, you are influencing children in a very unprofessional manner. If they do
bring it up or ask about what you think, you should quickly change the subject.
EDIT,
Think of it this way. Imagine your kid comes home one day and says this, "Hey dad. I asked about sex today at school and my teacher told me what it meant
and told me that he believe sex between two 16 year olds is all right as long as it is safe and consentual. Also, he believes that everyone should have sex
before getting married, it's only smart to test compatibility before signing something for life. My teacher is really smart and cool."
I have no doubt, NO DOUBT, you would be phoning the school after that little converstation. |
| cubanlord wrote: |
I agree with Tomato concerning C.S. Lewis. I am not religious myself, but I enjoyed his writings as a child. If we are going to rule out
anything and everything with religious content or origin, we will miss out on a number of great authors such as Charles *beep*, Victor Hugo, or even J.R.
Tolkein. While we're at it, we'd also have to throw out a great deal of classical music and art. Being profesional is one thing, but completely censoring out
any and all religious ideals is taking things too far.
As for the whole belief thing, it seems like anyone who is looking for evidence to point us one way or the other would do well to investigate paranormal
phenomenon or near death experiences in a non-biased, objective fashion. This research should include any and all natural explanations for said phenomenon,
and not jump to conclusions too speedily when explanations are hard to come by. If we are going to find real answers about god, the universe, the afterlife,
or lack thereof, this would be the way to do it. However, it seems like many take a black and white attitude toward these phenomenon. It seems that many
people simply assume that they exist, or that they do not. I would like to see more skeptical, but open minded literature on this topic. |
| KittyLover wrote: |
| Sorry! That last post by Cubanlord was really by me. Don't know how that happened... |
| tomato wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
My school is literally in the bible belt of Korea. 85% of my students are ardent Christians (well, so far as a child can
be). |
Never heard of it.
Where is it? |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Anyway, I don't respond to Satori or Troll Bait because they have said stuff like this.
| Quote: |
You are deranged. You're unstable. You're not well."
You are the most hate filled bigot I've ever read.
Your ignorance is deep and profound, your hatred is bilious and dangerous. to Is this guy for real or what? Please, for the sake of humanity, don't have
children...
What a fruitcake...
You haven't the faintest idea what "truth" even is.
Pure and utter rubbish from you, again.
You hate yourself. And frankly I don't blame you. I suggest serious professional psychiatric help is your only option now.
I don't feel xians have the right to shove thier idiocy in my face either. |
They are more interested in censorship than freedom of speech. |
I have never said anything like that. Each and every one of the above quotes is from Satori.
Do not slander me by putting words in my mouth.
That you would attribute any of the above quotes to me shows that you either don't read my posts carefully, have a low tolerance for disagreement, don't like
it when I point out your errors/ignorance, or are delibately trying to twist the truth to make me look like the villain.
I am not for censorship. I am against abusing one's position as an ESL teacher to sneak some "stealth" evangelism into a classroom full of young,
impressionable students.
If someone starts evangelising me, I can walk away, stop reading, or log off. Students have none of these options available if their teacher starts
preaching.
Edit:
I just read laogaiguk's post. Good response.
I hope that Kitty_Lover/Cuban_Lord read my post addressed to Tomato. |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Satori wrote: |
I stand by everything I've said about you. There is nothing more dangerous or repulsive than a fundamentalist...
|
... of any kind.
Peace |
| tomato wrote: |
Hello, Troll Bait!
This is in response to your response to Five Eagles:
| Quote: |
I have never said anything like that. Each and every one of the above quotes is from Satori.
Do not slander me by putting words in my mouth.
That you would attribute any of the above quotes to me shows that you either don't read my posts carefully, have a low tolerance for disagreement, don't like
it when I point out your errors/ignorance, or are delibately trying to twist the truth to make me look like the villain. |
Not necessarily.
Five Eagles may be unfair, but to the four possibilities you mention, I wish to suggest a fifth possibility:
Maybe Five Eagles regards you and Satori as a corporate individual.
Keep in mind that Five Eagles has an inner brain, whether he believes he does or not.
This inner brain tells him that all opponents are enemies.
Furthermore, I am not pointing the finger only at Five Eagles. I remember family arguments in which I accused one family member of something that another
family member said. I also remember occasions during the Vietnam protest in which I accused one war advocate of something that another war advocate said.
And enemies are not to be regarded as individuals, but rather, well--enemies!
Once again, I refer to my post on page 2 of this thread. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Anyway, I don't respond to Satori or Troll Bait because they have said stuff like this.
| Quote: |
You are deranged. You're unstable. You're not well."
You are the most hate filled bigot I've ever read.
Your ignorance is deep and profound, your hatred is bilious and dangerous. to Is this guy for real or what? Please, for the sake of humanity, don't have children...
What a fruitcake...
You haven't the faintest idea what "truth" even is.
Pure and utter rubbish from you, again.
You hate yourself. And frankly I don't blame you. I suggest serious professional psychiatric help is your only option now.
I don't feel xians have the right to shove thier idiocy in my face either. |
They are more interested in censorship than freedom of speech. |
I have never said anything like that. Each and every one of the above quotes is from Satori.
Do not slander me by putting words in my mouth.
That you would attribute any of the above quotes to me shows that you either don't read my posts carefully, have a low tolerance for disagreement, don't like it when I point out your errors/ignorance, or are delibately trying to twist the truth to make me look like the villain.
I am not for censorship. I am against abusing one's position as an ESL teacher to sneak some "stealth" evangelism into a classroom full of young, impressionable students.
If someone starts evangelising me, I can walk away, stop reading, or log off. Students have none of these options available if their teacher starts preaching.
|
Troll Bait, going through a few of my threads, here are a few things you have to say,
| Quote: |
Said the hypocrite. (refering to me)
Again, you betray your total ignorance of everything except for your particular, narrow brand of Christianity. (refering to me)
I imagine that it must be frustrating for him that we consider him to be an equal, not a superior, and refuse to blindly follow him. (refering to me) |
Like I have said before, if you want to use restraint and civility then ok, I am up for discussion, but if you want to use this as a platform to judge me and then paint me as something that I am not, then no thanks. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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I've skimmed this all--no deep reading--and the one thing that I think is missing from Herr fiveeagles(feel free to correct me if I missed it) is a clear answer to the question of evangelizing in the classroom. Whether you are for it or against it, a sinister implication that you do engage in it (I can practically see you twisting the end of your handlebar moustache) and then a response to a direct question about the matter that is comprised of a snarky emoticon, doesn't make me want to give you the benefit of the doubt or sympathize with your point of view or reasoning--it makes me think you are admitting to underhanded proselytization among innocent minds and you think it's cute.
If you take your religious beliefs so seriously, state your stance on preaching in the classroom clearly, else how can anyone take you seriously? |
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blaseblasphemener
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Location: There's a voice, keeps on calling me, down the road, that's where I'll always be
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| I would hazard a guess that 99.9% of children who have enjoyed the C.S. Lewis, including the wonderful BBC animated movie of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, had no idea that the book was based on Christianity. It was just a great story, with great characters. As long as the story is taught with out aluding to the Christian subtexts, there is no problem with teaching this story to children. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| blaseblasphemener wrote: |
| I would hazard a guess that 99.9% of children who have enjoyed the C.S. Lewis, including the wonderful BBC animated movie of the Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, had no idea that the book was based on Christianity. It was just a great story, with great characters. As long as the story is taught with out aluding to the Christian subtexts, there is no problem with teaching this story to children. |
Oh, sure. I loved the books for the swashbuckling and derring-doo. I have assigned it for classes and shown the movie, I have also shown "The Lonely Giant" which is much more overtly Christian than the Narnia books. And there is nothing wrong with using Christian inspired materials at all, with balanced instruction free from agenda.
Does everyone posting in this thread follow the same guidelines? I for one think that TB has got the kids sitting in the half lotus, chanting mantras, the slimey pagan dog.... |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
Troll Bait, going through a few of my threads, here are a few things you have to say,
| Quote: |
Said the hypocrite. (refering to me)
Again, you betray your total ignorance of everything except for your particular, narrow brand of Christianity. (refering to me)
I imagine that it must be frustrating for him that we consider him to be an equal, not a superior, and refuse to blindly follow him. (refering to me) |
Like I have said before, if you want to use restraint and civility then ok, I am up for discussion, but if you want to use this as a platform to judge me and then paint me as something that I am not, then no thanks. |
Thanks for quoting me out of context. Still trying to make me look like the villain. I expect no less from you. Let's put these into perspective, shall we? I've included the links so that readers can follow them and see for themselves the deception.
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=58537&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=Heaven+reincarnation&start=135
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Besides, both Jewish (Josephus and Talmud writers) and Roman (Tacitus, Pliny and others) historians mention and confirm such gospel claims as the crucifixion of Jesus, the martyrdom of James, the claim of miracle-working and of the resurrection. |
In previous threads, both hermes.trismegistus and myself refuted that. All of it. You obviously never bothered to read.
Previously, in this very thread, I mentioned a book.
So, I say again: I read your book. Why won't you read mine? What are you afraid of? When mindmetoo refused to read your book, you accused him of a cop-out. But when you refuse to read a book, it's not a cop-out?
Do as I say, not as I do.
Said the hypocrite.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| All you have to do is read the supposed "Gospel" of Thomas or Judas or Phillip alongside with Matthew or Luke. You will instantly see for yourself that there is no comparison. These books have ridiculous stories of Jesus doing miracles as a baby. |
Again, you betray your total ignorance of everything except for your particular, narrow brand of Christianity.
Have you ever read the Gospel of Thomas? It's great! And it does not contradict the four canonical Gospels. It is basically a list of sayings by Jesus, many of which are parallelled in the canonical Gospels. The Jesus Seminar considers the Gospel of Thomas to be a source of the actual sayings of Jesus.
Here's an example:
Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the Father's kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the Father's kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
True, that.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| They (these Gospels) contain made up events which are blatantly created, not because they are true, but because they support the gnostic agenda. |
Substitute "gnostic" with "Christian" and you'd be about right.
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| Anyone who attempts to put these bogus gospels on par with the canonical books is either a very poor scholar or he or she has an agenda, and that agenda is certainly not to support the truth. |
So, anyone who disagrees with you is "a very poor scholar"? Who decides that? You? And on what basis? You're an English teacher who doesn't even know the differences between your/you're, corroboration/collaboration, and cosmology/evolution. You're obviously no scholar yourself and are thus in no position at all to judge who's a good scholar and who isn't. |
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=50282&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=frustrating+shepherd&start=120
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| shortskirt_longjacket wrote: |
Yeah, why does he insist on calling it "Wade and Roe?" ... We were all giving him a hard time about it on like page 2 of this ten page thread and he's still doing it. |
Do you really think he's listening to you at all?
He is the shepherd, and we are the sheep.
He is supposed to talk down to us and tell us what to do.
I imagine that it must be frustrating for him that we consider him to be an equal, not a superior, and refuse to blindly follow him. |
By the way, this man is truly a prophet (from here)
| Bronski wrote: |
| Some of you are looking to convert us heathens. You'll have better luck with your usual stand-bys: reformed junkies/alcoholics, suicidal teens and children who don't know any better. In other words, the vulnerable who are looking for a group to join. |
So instead of being evasive or conducting ad hominem attacks, how about answering some of the other posters, such as laogaiguk or flotsam? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| If I caught anyone trying to push any religion I did not explicitly want my kids to be taught to them I would skin said person alive. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
If you are talking abou this forum, then maybe they are more interested in censorship, I don't follow your battles with them. But if you are talking about bringing up God in class, ever, especially to kids in a public school setting, they are not talking about censorship, they are talking about PROFESSIONALISM. Your political and religious views should never come out in class, especially with children. I am in the opposite situation as you.
My school is literally in the bible belt of Korea. 85% of my students are ardent Christians (well, so far as a child can be). Whenever the word church or god come up, I explain them from a language point of view only. I never say I don't go to church when they ask, I don't say I think the bible is a boring storybook when the subject comes up and if I ask them what they do every Sunday I don't remark at all about their beliefs but treat everything from the point of view of a PROFESSIONAL ENGLISH TEACHER. It's not my job to save them from the idiocy of Christianity, only teach them English. It's up to their parents to tell them about God FiveEagles, whether for or against.
Your personal views should not come up in class. If they ask about moraility, teach them what it means from an impersonal point of view if you need examples. When you talk about your religious beliefs from your personal opinion, you are influencing children in a very unprofessional manner. If they do bring it up or ask about what you think, you should quickly change the subject.
EDIT,
Think of it this way. Imagine your kid comes home one day and says this, "Hey dad. I asked about sex today at school and my teacher told me what it meant and told me that he believe sex between two 16 year olds is all right as long as it is safe and consentual. Also, he believes that everyone should have sex before getting married, it's only smart to test compatibility before signing something for life. My teacher is really smart and cool."
I have no doubt, NO DOUBT, you would be phoning the school after that little converstation. |
FIVEEAGELS, what do you think about this? There are no personal attacks and no reason to ignore it. Also, do you talk about your personal opinions in class? |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:03 am Post subject: |
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There is absolutely no place for evangelising in the classroom. It is abuse of the highest order and completely unprofessional.
If a child asks "What is morality?" ( highly unlikely ) you don't say "Morality is always telling the truth and not coveting they neighours ass (  )". That is defining your own personal view of morality.
What you do is you tell them what the word means, ie morality is a belief system about what is right or wrong/good or bad. You're an English teacher, so teach the language.
Same goes for "What is god?". Again, I doubt highly that children are asking what god is without prompting. But when faced with this question you don't go into a diatribe on your chosen vision of god. The concept is too complex, simply point them to an English/Korean dictionary, so they can see the Korean word. Further discussion on the concept of god is for the parents to conduct.
I have strong suspicions that Five Eagles is evengelising in the classroom, abusing his position, and acting in an unprofessional way. If this is true then my opinion of him just went lower, and that is really saying something. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| jaganath69 wrote: |
| If I caught anyone trying to push any religion I did not explicitly want my kids to be taught to them I would skin said person alive. |
Give me a call and I'll hold them down for you. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
Yeah, I do talk about God, but within boundaries, only if I feel it's fitting for the subject. Such as what is redemption, what is morality and so on.
I have made some great relationships with the kids and if they choose to follow Christ then that's a great reward of mine. |
Talking about God "within boundaries"? What are the boundaries, exactly?
Also, I'm very curious how and when redemption or morality were brought up in class. Does it happen often? Can you think of some examples where the words came up?
See, the thing is, I've never once had these things come up in class. I have had students ask me before what my religion is, and usually I don't even answer. I just smile and say don't worry about it, and then I get them to tell me about their beliefs, or I change the subject. I've taught church vocabulary (Bible, church, cathedral, etc.) because it helps them talk to me about their weekends, but I NEVER have used their stories as a segue into talking about redemption or morality.
That's absolutely unprofessional, fiveeagles, and you'd never be able to get away with it in an American school. If the ACLU found out, you'd be history. It's not about suppressing free speech. It's about allowing parents to send their kids to school to learn without worrying that their minds could be impressed with what the parents believe to be steaming rubbish.
I have not insulted you. Please don't use that as a way to duck out of responding to me. I'm very interested in knowing the answers to my questions at the beginning of the post.
Q. |
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Peter Jackson
Joined: 23 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:35 am Post subject: Abuse |
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Abuse of the highest order Satori? I can think of a few abuses that might just rank a little higher...
As far as impressionable minds go, I for one can recall sitting through years of Sunday school classes being told what and how to believe and even at 10 years old yawning and saying, "I don't believe that!". And even if I DID, I really didn't try very hard to stop doing the things I enjoyed doing, even if God didn't approve.
I can just imagine some ESL teacher teaching a Korean youngster that Aslan is the "Lion of Judah" and the student thinking so yeah he's a lion and where in America is Judah?  |
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KittyLover
Joined: 20 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:06 am Post subject: |
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| Funny, I've got the opposite problem. I work in a Christian school. So how do I go about not lying about my beliefs without "polluting" the minds of students with my heretical beliefs? Can get sticky sometimes. Lots of sidestepping involved. |
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otis
Joined: 02 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:21 am Post subject: |
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I don't think the Koreans would care one way or another.
They don't have the same God hang-ups like a lot of white liberals are possessed with. They might think the teacher is a bit odd, but that's about it.
Why the word God has become so hateful to liberal atheist Communist types is beyond me. |
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KittyLover
Joined: 20 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Now that I think of it, I do get more raised eyebrows from other weaguks than Koreans. Kinda refreshing, actually. (The Korean approach, not the eyebrows of course!) |
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