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cerulean808
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: Israel losing? |
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Robert Fisk in The Independent
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Qlaya, Southern Lebanon -- Is it possible - is it conceivable - that Israel is losing its war in Lebanon?
From this hill village in the south of the country, I am watching the clouds of brown and black smoke rising from its latest disaster in the Lebanese town of Bint Jbeil: up to 13 Israeli soldiers dead, and others surrounded, after a devastating ambush by Hizbollah guerrillas in what was supposed to be a successful Israeli military advance against a "terrorist centre".
To my left smoke rises too, over the town of Khiam, where a smashed United Nations outpost remains the only memorial to the four UN soldiers - most of them decapitated by an American-made missile on Tuesday - killed by the Israeli air force.
Indian soldiers of the UN army in southern Lebanon, visibly moved by the horror of bringing their Canadian, Fijian, Chinese and Austrian comrades back in at least 20 pieces from the clearly marked UN post next to Khiam prison, left their remains at Marjayoun hospital yesterday.
In past years, I have spent hours with their comrades in this UN position, which is clearly marked in white and blue paint, with the UN's pale blue flag opposite the Israeli frontier. Their duty was to report on all they saw: the ruthless Hizbollah missile fire out of Khiam and the brutal Israeli response against the civilians of Lebanon.
Is this why they had to die, after being targeted by the Israelis for eight hours, their officers pleading to the Israeli Defence Forces that they cease fire? An American-made Israeli helicopter saw to that.
In Bint Jbeil, meanwhile, another bloodbath was taking place. Claiming to "control" this southern Lebanese town, the Israelis chose to walk into a Hizbollah trap. The moment they reached the deserted marketplace, they were ambushed from three sides, their soldiers falling to the ground under sustained rifle fire. The remaining Israeli troops - surrounded by the "terrorists" they were supposed to liquidate - desperately appealed for help, but an Israeli Merkava tank and other vehicles sent to help them were also attacked and set on fire. Up to 17 Israeli soldiers may have died so far in this disastrous operation. During their occupation of Lebanon in 1983 more than 50 Israeli soldiers were killed in just one suicide attack.
The battle for southern Lebanon is on an epic scale but, from the heights above Khiam, the Israelis appear to be in deep trouble. Their F-16s turn in the high bright sun - small, silver fish whose whispers gain in volume as they dive - and their bombs burst over the old prison, where the Hizbollah are still holding out; beyond the frontier, I can see livid fires burning across the Israeli hillsides and the Jewish settlement of Metullah billowing smoke.
It was not meant to be like this, 15 days into Israel's assault on Lebanon. The Katyushas still streak in pairs out of southern Lebanon, clearly visible to the naked eye, white contrails that thump into Israeli's hillsides and border towns.
So is it frustration or revenge that keeps Israel's bombs falling on the innocent? In the early hours two days ago, a tremendous explosion woke me up, rattling the windows and shaking the trees outside, and a single flash suffused the western sky over Nabatiyeh.
The lives of an entire family of seven had just been extinguished.
And how come - since this now obsesses the humanitarian organisations working in Lebanon - that the Israelis bombed two ambulances in Qana, killing two of the three wounded inside. All the crews were injured - one with a piece of shrapnel in his neck - but what worried the Lebanese Red Cross was that the Israeli missiles had pierced the very centre of the red cross painted on the roof of each vehicle. Did the pious use the cross as their aiming point?
The bombardment of Khiam has set off its own brush fires on the hillsides below Qlaya, whose Maronite Christian inhabitants now stand on the high road above like spectators at a 19th century battle. Khiam is - or was - a pretty village of cut-stone doorways and tracery windows, but Israel's target, apart from the obviously marked UN position whose inhabitants they massacred, is the notorious prison in which - before its retreat from Lebanon in 2000 - hundreds of Hizbollah members and, in some cases, their families, were held and tortured with electricity by Israel's proxy militia, the South Lebanon Army.
This was the same prison complex - turned into a "museum of torture" by the Hizbollah after the Israeli retreat - that was visited by the late Edward Said shortly before his death. More important, however, is that many of the Hizbollah men originally held prisoner here were captives in cells deep underground the old French mandate fort. These same men are now fighting the Israelis, almost certainly sheltering from their fire in the same underground cells in which they languished, perhaps even storing some of their missiles there.
In Marjayoun, next to Qlaya, once the SLA's headquarters, Lebanese troops are trying to prevent Hizbollah guerrillas using the streets of the Greek Catholic town to fire yet more missiles at Israel. Seven-man Lebanese army patrols are moving through the darkened roads of both towns at night in case the Hizbollah brings yet more Israeli bombs down on our heads.
In Beirut, one observes the folly of Western nations with amusement as well as horror, but, sitting in these hill villages and listening to how the US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, plans to reshape Lebanon is clearly a lesson in human self-delusion. According to US correspondents accompanying Ms Rice on her visit to the Middle East, she is proposing the intervention of a Nato-led force along the Lebanese-Israeli border for between 60 and 90 days to assure that a ceasefire exists, the deployment of an enlarged Nato force throughout Lebanon to disarm Hizbollah and then the retraining of the Lebanese army before its own deployment to the border.
This plan - which, like all American proposals on Lebanon, is exactly the same as Israel's demands - carries the same depth of conceit as that of the Israeli consul general in New York, who said last week that "most Lebanese appreciate what we are doing".
Does Ms Rice think the Hizbollah want to be disarmed? By Nato? Wasn't there a Nato force in Beirut which fled Lebanon after a group close to the Hizbollah bombed the US Marine base at Beirut airport in 1983, killing 241 US servicemen and dozens more French troops a few seconds later? Does anyone believe that Shia Muslim forces will not do the same again to any Nato "intervention" force? The Americans are talking about Egyptian and Turkish troops in southern Lebanon; Sunni Muslims ruling Shia territory.
The Hizbollah has been waiting and training and dreaming of this new war for years, however ruthless we may regard the actions. They are not going to surrender the territory they liberated from the Israeli army in an 18-year guerrilla war, least of all to Nato at Israel's bidding.
Yesterday's assault on the Israeli army in Bint Jbeil proved that. The problem is that the US sees this slaughterhouse as an "opportunity" rather than a tragedy, a chance to humble Hizbollah supporters in Tehran and help to shape the "new Middle East" of which Ms Rice spoke so blithely this week.
It is Israel which is running out of time in southern Lebanon. Its attacks have for the fifth time in 30 years placed it in the dock for war crimes in Lebanon. The toll of Lebanon's civilian casualties has reached 400. And still the US will not intervene to prevent the carnage, even to call for a 24-hour ceasefire to allow the 3,000 civilians still trapped between Qlaya and Bint Jbeil - who include a number of foreign nationals - to flee.
The only civilian walking those frightening roads to Qlaya was a goatherd, guiding his animals around the huge bomb craters in the tarmac. Talking to him, it emerged that he was almost stone deaf and obviously could not hear the bombs. In this, it seemed, he has a lot in common with Condoleezza Rice.
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: |
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Israel losing?
Robert Fisk?
this thread is a reinvention of the broken record, a thousand times over.
Funny how Israel keeps losing.........in Fisk's fevered dreams. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: |
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The black humor in all this is that Hizzbollah would not last ten days against Saddam Hussein or Haffaz Assad any of the other dictators of the mideast. The fast that Hizzbollah is still around shows that Israel is not like its enemies.
In the mideast as Thomas Friedman of the NY Times said;
"Hama rules" *
Hama was a city destroyed by Haffaz Assad in less two weeks when there was an uprising in the city. At least 20,000 were killed . When it was over Assad built a new city on top of the old one and that was that.
No one in the mideast street said a word.
Neither did the UN.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| By the way Fisk lives in Lebanon where Hizzbollah is the boss. Maybe that is why he doesn't write against Hizzbollah or Iran. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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everyone one is losing..................more so those who keep count of winners and losers, not seeing how horrific this all is.
Why is it that no nation is willing to suffer the "cost of peace". Meaning, all nations seem to bear the cost of war but none are willing to make a stand and say, "we are for peace" at all costs..........????? Somewhere in that statement is the center which holds all this violence. I think.
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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An article from a personal viewpoint but still impassioned and concluding how we are all losing..............how war is no way to win peace..........
Please read.
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Lebanon: The tribes of war
Abbas el-Zein
Published: July 27, 2006
SYDNEY Lebanon
My grandmother was killed in southern Lebanon by an Israeli "precision" air raid as she fled the Israeli Army in March 1978. My uncle searched for her desperately amid the invasion.
News kept coming from different quarters, some confirming she had died, others maintaining she was alive in a hospital in Lebanon or Israel.
My uncle finally found her in the village of Abbasiyeh, on the hills overlooking the orchards of the city of Tyre. He recognized her body from the clothes she had been wearing, gathered her remains and buried her. My mother, who had been worn down by the contradictory reports, collapsed upon hearing the news. She had had a trivial dispute with her mother a couple of weeks earlier, and never forgave herself for not making up.
I was 15 at the time and what I remember most was my mother's shriek coming to a sudden end, her body abruptly surrendering to pain.
It was as if she had to share some of her grief with us, draping it on the walls of our house, then keep the rest inside her, in a private pact with her mother.
When the civil war in Lebanon ended, in 1990, we took a while to believe it. It could restart at any time, an inner voice told us. A few years later, peace became the norm. Everyone believed in it and belief made it more real. We never suspected that, years later, our original skepticism would be cruelly validated, and the fragility of collective sanity in the Middle East would be exposed once again.
The estimated death toll from the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon was 18,000, about 0.5 percent of the population. Twenty-four years later, I have yet to hear any sign of remorse emanating from Israeli society. Nor were there any reparations for the carnage wrought by the Israeli Army. When the Israeli press, politicians and intellectuals speak with regret about the "Lebanon War," it is usually to say the cost to Israel was too high or to point out that the invasion failed to achieve its objectives. The Lebanese fatalities are rarely discussed.
A joke went around during the civil war that it was safer to be a target of the Israeli warplanes than to be exposed to the ineffectual anti-aircraft fire directed against them. Lebanese bullets seemed certain to hit you if you fled, whereas if you stayed put, the Israeli missiles would probably land in your neighbor's house, not yours.
Since then, air strikes have grown more precise and the Israeli Air Force appears to have expanded its range: Planes now target your neighbor's house and your own. Recent images from Lebanon are chillingly familiar - fathers watching their children die, mothers expiring in children's laps. Dozens of stories like my grandmother's are being re-enacted. Dozens of new graves are being dug.
An ancient city and a sovereign nation are being destroyed. The people of Haifa are suffering, too, and Hezbollah unquestionably bears responsibility for its raid on an Israeli military patrol, which began the latest violence. But the scale of suffering is imbalanced, and so is the apportionment of blame. It was the Israeli government, not Hezbollah, let alone the Lebanese government or people, that chose to start this all-out war.
More is at stake now than the fate of Lebanon. If the West does not persuade Israel to stop its attacks, that failure will add to a creeping sense that, in its fight with Islamic fundamentalism, the West has abandoned its claim to moral superiority based on respect for human rights and international law, and is pursuing instead a war based increasingly on tribal solidarity. What a tragedy this would be, especially for those of us who crave a modern, peaceful Middle East.
And what a triumph for the varied strains of bin Ladenism - Muslim, Christian and Jewish alike. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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I think the killing of 9 Israeli soldiers made them realise a ground offensive could be more costly and entangled than they realised. The last invasion of Lebanon was bad enough.
Conventional warfare struggles against terrorist/geurilla tactics. hit and run, merge with the civilian population etc etc.
By hitting infrastructural targets from the air, Israel ensures few casualties among its own, yet hampers the ability of hizbollah. As Lebanese civilians die, the tide of opinion will either turn against hizbollah ("we're paying the price for your war games" or for them (" you're the only ones who can defend us").
At the same time Israel is sending a messgae that hizbollah will be hit even if they hide behind civilians and UN observers. Thats the right message to send. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
everyone one is losing..................more so those who keep count of winners and losers, not seeing how horrific this all is.
Why is it that no nation is willing to suffer the "cost of peace". Meaning, all nations seem to bear the cost of war but none are willing to make a stand and say, "we are for peace" at all costs..........????? Somewhere in that statement is the center which holds all this violence. I think.
DD |
DD,
You, sir, are the re-incarnation of Warren Austin.
Though I'll bet you are probably a little more handsome. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:29 am Post subject: |
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How far will israelis have to push into Lebanon to stop missiles being launched on haifa? They're still finding their mark.
Seems to me the newer iranian missiles are long range... israeli troops would have to advance to beirut to neutralise all the hizbollah batteries.
If S. Lebanon is occupied by a Un force, Israel will still be vulnerable to hixbollah rockets launched from deep within Lebanon! |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Fisk wrote: |
| So is it frustration or revenge that keeps Israel's bombs falling on the innocent? |
It's the fact that Hezbollah rockets are firing into Israel at the rate of several dozen per day, and their estimated stockpile is at 10k. God, for a professor Fisk can sure be a willful idiot. |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: |
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At the same time Israel is sending a messgae that hizbollah will be hit even if they hide behind civilians and UN observers. Thats the right message to send.
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... wow ... what a b**p. sitting at home safe in Korea - calling for more attacks on the Lebanese civilian population. You seriously need to go visit one of these war torn countries and look at these people mourning over their dead kids.
... not such an unrealistic proposition.
The last arab-israeli war was strategically at least, pretty much a draw. With the Israelis taking large numbers of casualties. The more and more I think of it, I come to the conclusion that there really won't be peace in the middle east, until the Israelis find that messing with the arabs like this will cost them enormously in terms of casualties. There really isn't any other counterweight capable of holding back the tide of the israeli war machine, not the US, certainly not the UN, not popular Israeli opinion...
Interestingly enough, at the time of the six-day war - the Israelis targeted an American warship (USS Liberty) off the Egyptian coast with fighter jets and torpedo boats killing 33 and wounding 178 American sailors - many of them at close range from gunboats as they scrambled over the side of their burning ship. It just so happened that the ship was passing details of Israeli troop movements to the Egyptian government inline with the US administration's policy of facilitating an Israeli victory, but not an Israeli rout. This time the Israelis are targetting the UN. I guess the US must have learnt their lesson - don't mess with Israel.
Soon Iran will have the bomb. I think that'll be the next major milestone in the middle eastern arena. More and more I'm beginning to think that it might not be such a bad idea for one of these arab states to be in a position to defend themselves and their people from slaughter at the hands of the Israelis and their American allies.
I have an uncle who served on the peace-keeping force in the Lebanon. He told me that the Lebanese-Israeli militia used to break ceasefires all the time and often used to attack civilian 'safe-zones'. The UN forces used to have to fight it out with those guys all the time. If the UN does go back, I hope that they'll be armed with more than just binoculars. Surface-to-air missiles would be high on my wishlist if I was heading that taskforce. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Why don't Israel's enemies just give up ther war. Then there would have been no war.
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| Soon Iran will have the bomb. I think that'll be the next major milestone in the middle eastern arena. More and more I'm beginning to think that it might not be such a bad idea for one of these arab states to be in a position to defend themselves and their people from slaughter at the hands of the Israelis and their American allies. |
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RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL
TEHRAN 14 Dec. (IPS) One of Iran�s most influential ruling cleric called Friday on the Muslim states to use nuclear weapon against Israel, assuring them that while such an attack would annihilate Israel, it would cost them "damages only".
"If a day comes when the world of Islam is duly equipped with the arms Israel has in possession, the strategy of colonialism would face a stalemate because application of an atomic bomb would not leave any thing in Israel but the same thing would just produce damages in the Muslim world", Ayatollah Ali Akbar Hashemi-Rafsanjani told the crowd at the traditional Friday prayers in Tehran.
Analysts said not only Mr. Hashemi-Rafsanjani�s speech was the strongest against Israel, but also this is the first time that a prominent leader of the Islamic Republic openly suggests the use of nuclear weapon against the Jewish State |
http://www.iran-press-service.com/articles_2001/dec_2001/rafsanjani_nuke_threats_141201.htm
Israel and Iran had good relations before Khomeni came to power . Why are they having problems now? |
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dbee
Joined: 29 Dec 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Israel and Iran had good relations before Khomeni came to power . Why are they having problems now?
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... err ... gee ... I dunno.
maybe it's got something to do with the illegal bombing raids on Iraq, the nuclear proliferation vandalism that was Israels nuclear armament, the incredible humanitarian crimes that israel commits weekly, or maybe the Irianian don't like being told what form of government is acceptable to a state which considers a 3000 year old manuscript the ultimate form of god's law.
Grow up ... I don't believe in any god that validates the Israeli form of execution ... |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| ... err ... gee ... I dunno. |
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| maybe it's got something to do with the illegal bombing raids on Iraq, |
?? YOu mean Osirk?
Iraq by the way was officially at war with Israel when Israel bombed Oisirk. 
By the way why would Iran who was at war with Iraq be angry about Israel's bombing of Osirk?
Are you smoking something?
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| the nuclear proliferation vandalism that was Israels nuclear armament, |
cause Israel's enemies have wanted to destroy Israel since it started
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| the incredible humanitarian crimes that israel commits weekly |
,
Israel uses more force than others during war?
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| or maybe the Irianian don't like being told what form of government is acceptable to a state which considers a 3000 year old manuscript the ultimate form of god's law. |
Israel told them what kind of government to have?
"Grow up", you are sounding more and more like a moonbat.
why don't you start backing up your charges.
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I don't believe in any god that validates the Israeli form of execution |
Just tell Hizzbollah and Iran to give up their war. There would have been no war if they hadn't been after Israel.
Furthermore you forget that right from the day that Khomeni took power he was after Israel.
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Prior to the Revolution, Iran and Israel had been de facto allies in the Middle East. One of the very first acts of the provisional government was to denounce that relationship and to turn over the former Israeli mission in Tehran to the Palestine Liberation Organization. All trade with Israel was banned, especially the sale of oil. Iranian leaders contended that Israel's existence was illegitimate, because it came about as a result of the destruction of Palestine. Therefore, Iran advocated eradicating Israel and reconstituting Palestine. Those Arabs who advocated compromise with Israel, such as Anwar as Sadat of Egypt, were excoriated as traitors. In general, Iran's relations with the Arab states have been based on perceptions of each state's relations with Israel.
In 1979, Khomeini declared the last Friday of Ramadan as al-Quds Day. This is the annual event in which Iranians protest against Israel and for the liberation of Jerusalem [al-Quds]. Iran's leadership continued to encourage anti-Israeli activity and Supreme Leader Khamenei has even referred to Israel as a "cancerous tumor |
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/zionist-entity.htm
You are pretty hysterical , but your facts are bad time in and time out. and I will call you them on whenever you post.
By the way Hizzbollah is out to destroy Israel, so why ought Israel let them survive? Would you not deal with an entity that seeks to destroy you ?
Indeed Hizzbollah may not only be interested in destroying Israel they may be interested in wiping out Jews in general.
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| �if they (Jews) all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.� |
Hizbullah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah
Nasrallah alleges �Christian Zionist� plot
The Daily Star ^ | October 23 2002 | Badih Chayban
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/774649/posts
What do you think now? Not a hate group?
http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1998/05/980520-iran.htm
what do you think now? Notg a hate group?
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AMIA Bombing
[edit]
The bombing
On July 18, 1994, a powerful bomb made of ammonium nitrate was driven in a van through the front gates of the AMIA building in the Once district near downtown Buenos Aires. The building was a seven-story structure which was the headquarters of Argentina's Jewish community. The bomber detonated the bomb, levelling the building and reducing it to rubble, along with nearby buildings.
Eighty-five people died, most of them Jewish. More than three hundred others were wounded. The attack came two years after the 1992 Israeli Embassy Attack in Buenos Aires that killed 29, and a day before a bomber blew himself up on a Panamanian commuter plane, killing 12 Jews and 9 others. Eight days after the AMIA attack the Israeli Embassy in London was car-bombed by two Palestinians linked to Hezbollah.
In the days following the bombing, Israel sent Mossad agents to Argentina to investigate and Argentina closed its borders for fear more terrorists could enter. It is thought possible that the bombers entered Argentina through the Triple Frontier, where the borders of Argentina, Brazil, and Paraguay meet. Argentina's intelligence agency, the SIDE, is said to have set up a network of surveillance called "Centauro" in Paraguay, where many Muslim extremist cells are said to be located. In the years following the attack SIDE is said to have stopped another attack on Argentine soil.
[edit]
Responsibility
Argentina, Israel and the US[1] suspect that Hezbollah was behind the attack, with backing from Iran. Hezbollah denies responsibility.[2] Israeli diplomatic sources who read the "final" report by SIDE on the attack said in 2003 that the attack was a suicide bombing carried out by Ibrahim Hussein Berro, a 29-year-old Muslim who has been honored with a plaque in southern Lebanon for his "martyrdom" on July 18, 1994, the date of the bombing. This was confirmed by SIDE, the FBI, and Berro's relatives in November 2005. [3]
A Lebanon-based group called "Partisans of God" claimed responsibility for the AMIA blast, but the claim has been discounted. In 1999 an arrest warrant was issued against Hezbollah member Imad Mugniyah, in connection with the attack. In August 2003, Britain arrested Hade Soleimanpour, a former Iranian ambassador to Argentina, at the request of the Argentinian authorities. He was later released because, according to the Home Office, there was not enough prima facie evidence for the extradition of Hade Soleimanpour to proceed [4] |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_Bombing
Not a hate group?
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| dbee wrote: |
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Israel and Iran had good relations before Khomeni came to power . Why are they having problems now?
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... err ... gee ... I dunno.
maybe it's got something to do with the illegal bombing raids on Iraq, the nuclear proliferation vandalism that was Israels nuclear armament, the incredible humanitarian crimes that israel commits weekly, or maybe the Irianian don't like being told what form of government is acceptable to a state which considers a 3000 year old manuscript the ultimate form of god's law.
Grow up ... I don't believe in any god that validates the Israeli form of execution ... |
I'm wondering if you are even able to find Iran on the map. The are many things which motivate the Iranian regime, but stated none of them. |
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