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What parapsychology lacks
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:28 pm    Post subject: What parapsychology lacks Reply with quote

Ray Hyman raised an interesting problem with the errr science of parapsychology. There's no "paradigm experiment". Every science has at least one: a basic experiment you can give to all 101 level students. "Go do this experiment and these are the results you'll get, unless you muck it up." After 100 years of "research" there's no single, repeatable experiment in parapsychology (or pretty much any pseudo science) that demonstrates the basic paradigm of the field.

Odd that.
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Woland



Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was going to say evidence, results, validity but if you want to harp about lack of method, that's fine, too.
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Demophobe



Joined: 17 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woland wrote:
I was going to say evidence, results, validity but if you want to harp about lack of method, that's fine, too.


Perfect. Cool
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hermes.trismegistus



Joined: 08 Sep 2005

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:13 am    Post subject: Re: What parapsychology lacks Reply with quote

mindmetoo wrote:
Ray Hyman raised an interesting problem with the errr science of parapsychology. There's no "paradigm experiment". Every science has at least one: a basic experiment you can give to all 101 level students. "Go do this experiment and these are the results you'll get, unless you muck it up." After 100 years of "research" there's no single, repeatable experiment in parapsychology (or pretty much any pseudo science) that demonstrates the basic paradigm of the field.

Odd that.


Umm... we did distant mental influence experiments in 300 level cognitive science classes. Many undergrad departments make use of RNGs for similar illustrative purposes, but that also classifies as distant mental influence.

How many physics 101 students perform a double-slit experiment or anything illustrating quantum principles?

However, with all that said, plenty of parapsychology appears riddled with quackery. That doesn't mean the entire field lacks legitimacy.

Namaste.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: What parapsychology lacks Reply with quote

hermes.trismegistus wrote:
mindmetoo wrote:
Ray Hyman raised an interesting problem with the errr science of parapsychology. There's no "paradigm experiment". Every science has at least one: a basic experiment you can give to all 101 level students. "Go do this experiment and these are the results you'll get, unless you muck it up." After 100 years of "research" there's no single, repeatable experiment in parapsychology (or pretty much any pseudo science) that demonstrates the basic paradigm of the field.

Odd that.


Umm... we did distant mental influence experiments in 300 level cognitive science classes. Many undergrad departments make use of RNGs for similar illustrative purposes, but that also classifies as distant mental influence.


And did your instructor predict your results and did you get the predicted results? What did the experiment involve exactly?

Quote:
How many physics 101 students perform a double-slit experiment or anything illustrating quantum principles?


Think more high school science. Chemistry you do a basic experiment to demonstrate the conservation of mass. Biology you replicate Mendel's pea pod experiment. Unless you muck these up, you get the predicted results.

Quote:
However, with all that said, plenty of parapsychology appears riddled with quackery. That doesn't mean the entire field lacks legitimacy.


Well, a science that can't show any repeatable results after 100 years of trying to me lacks legitimacy.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, a science that can't show any repeatable results after 100 years of trying to me lacks legitimacy.


Personally, I am hoping phrenology makes a comeback. [/quote]
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Demophobe



Joined: 17 May 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And mood rings.

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hermes.trismegistus



Joined: 08 Sep 2005

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:06 pm    Post subject: Re: What parapsychology lacks Reply with quote

mindmetoo wrote:
And did your instructor predict your results and did you get the predicted results? What did the experiment involve exactly?


I suppose she did, but she didn't tell us, because that would've contaminated the experiment. We blinded for all factors we could. We achieved remarkable results - each of the 12 groups did, in fact.

We used RNGs in tandem with concentrated focus. We also artificially induced Alpha States, then added the concentrated focus through subliminal projection. We blinked data concentrating on background consciousness while in an Alpha State.

Quote:
Think more high school science. Chemistry you do a basic experiment to demonstrate the conservation of mass. Biology you replicate Mendel's pea pod experiment. Unless you muck these up, you get the predicted results.


Actually, Mendel's pea pod experiment, originally, was a lie. He fudged data, which accounts for the exceptional purity of his results. You'll get predicted results within a certain range, and you can do the same with some versions of parapsychology.

Quote:
Well, a science that can't show any repeatable results after 100 years of trying to me lacks legitimacy.


Parapsychology has shown repeatable results thousands and thousands of times. You grossly misrepresent the data.

Namaste.
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Ya-ta Boy



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
After 100 years of "research" there's no single, repeatable experiment in parapsychology (or pretty much any pseudo science) that demonstrates the basic paradigm of the field.


Actually, there is. You randomly select students and assign them to go sit out in the grass for an hour, observe the clouds and write down what the clouds look like. They will all come back and report that they saw human faces, animals, sailing ships or whatnot.

The human mind is designed to seek out patterns. Sometimes, of course, we see patterns where none exist.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: What parapsychology lacks Reply with quote

hermes.trismegistus wrote:

I suppose she did, but she didn't tell us, because that would've contaminated the experiment.


Golly. So she has no textbook example like chemistry's conservation of mass or finding the optic disk in psychology with a hard 'n' fast number? This is what I'm talking about. She could have revealed the reliably demonstrated results after the fact. Oh wait, there are no reliably demonstrated, repeatable results?

Quote:
We achieved remarkable results - each of the 12 groups did, in fact.


Fer example? Why isn't your instructor collecting the Nobel prize. She's discovered a kink in the laws of physics! Zip zip zipee!

Quote:
Actually, Mendel's pea pod experiment, originally, was a lie. He fudged data, which accounts for the exceptional purity of his results. You'll get predicted results within a certain range, and you can do the same with some versions of parapsychology.


I'm just giving an off the top of my head example. There are dozens of other examples, like finding the optic disk.

Quote:
Parapsychology has shown repeatable results thousands and thousands of times. You grossly misrepresent the data.


No. The parapsychologist do. They cook the numbers. "Oh gosh, we don't find a statistically significant effect. Wait, let's look at the first half of the data for a declining effect. Hrm. Nothing there. Wait, lets look at the last half of the data for an inclining effect. Hrm. Nothing there. Wait, maybe if we shift the data one place... the answers given are actually predictive of the future test... ah yes! We found a very slim effect. Huzzah!"

The fact is when you crunch decades of psy data via meta analysis you keep finding a lesser and lesser statically relevant effect. Which basically points to when you get very large numbers, experimental error begins to even out. Same deal for homeopathy.

Again, 100 years of research and the best thing parapsychology has to offer are a handful of studies with very slim statistical effects? That's not much of a science.
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Omkara



Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mindmetoo,

Maybe I'm coming into this conversation late. I agree with you, that scientific scrutiny ought to be respected. The idea that only a falsifiable propositon may be granted admittance into science is great; for, only those which are not proven false ultimately gain scientific respect and prove useful in real science. The bolder the proposition which yeilds results and which is not falsified, the greater and more revolutionary the proposition. Some of these propositions even shift paradigms, uproot authority, create revolution.

Too often, people "shoe-fit" in order to make their fantasies seem true. These kinds of propositions are not scientific insofar as they are not testable--hence, not falsifiable. What I especially like about the idea of falsifiability is that it invites criticism and consequently minimizes the margin of error; it keeps conjecture and superstition in their place, below the statis of law or fountation. Consequently, since every proposition may and should be questioned by any and by all, the idea is dear to those of us who love liberty, free thought, and who want to be free from any tyranical dogma and from the "Thought-Police."

Now, when you speak of "parapsychology," you speak of it as being bereft a paradigm. You are correct. There is no paradigm for these strange theories and conjectures. That, in a sense, is exactly the point. The subject of parapsychology is a set of anomalies which graw at the foundations of the existing paradigm.

Yet it does not follow that all of the parapsychological attempts at explaination of the anomalies are not testable. There are great minds at work in the field; though, owing to prejudice and superstitious taboo, many great minds do not attempt to do honest work with the problems.

In one sense, this set of anomalies is wierd. They offend our common sense notions and metaphysical underpinnings. Consequently, certain psychological predispositions are attracted to them. Some of those predispositions are "looney." Others are not so looney.

The same applies to the critics.

Be careful not to dismiss this field so quickly. The problems they are trying to solve are real problems; only our materialistic superstitions prejudice us into thinking that the problems are not real, or that our theories or paradigms ARE in the final analysis real.

One thing that underlies the anxiety which leads one to dismiss these problems is the fact the the problems imply that the very foundation of our scientific enterprise--namely the particular form of our causal model--is undermined. Consequently, so too our epistemology. But then, did not Socrates say that the basis of his wisdom was his knowledge that he did not know?

This is the irony of skepticism: the foundation of its doubt is often is a set of beliefs which are thought beyond reproach. Skepticism is very often dishonest; and for its bold and aggressive criticism, it often masks an insidious cowardice. This cowardice finds solace in an appeal to authority.

In short, examine the emotional content of any argument, and we'll find that very few intellectuals are really very honest; though, every proposition is a kind of confession.[/i]
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khyber



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction

PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phrenology?
I personally, am going to make that one of my pet projects when I get home. I'm gonna be a phrenologist..... go to farmer's markets with signs that say stuff like "Take a look at your inner self!" and ""Be Mezmorized!" and "You haven't had a lover know you this well"!
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hermes.trismegistus



Joined: 08 Sep 2005

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:49 am    Post subject: Re: What parapsychology lacks Reply with quote

mindmetoo wrote:
Golly. So she has no textbook example like chemistry's conservation of mass or finding the optic disk in psychology with a hard 'n' fast number? This is what I'm talking about. She could have revealed the reliably demonstrated results after the fact. Oh wait, there are no reliably demonstrated, repeatable results?


By your standards, psychology, cognitive science, psychiatry and a number of other fields wouldn't classify as science. They rarely seek to repeat results, and rarely have 'reliably demonstrated, repeatable results' even when they attempt.

Quote:
The fact is when you crunch decades of psy data via meta analysis you keep finding a lesser and lesser statically relevant effect. Which basically points to when you get very large numbers, experimental error begins to even out. Same deal for homeopathy.


Sorry, but this lacks validity. Meta-anaysis doesn't show lesser statistically relevant effects - they show more. And your suggestion that experimental error evens out results lacks any validity whatsoever, and borders on a delusional disregard for the data.

I covered much of this data in the astral projection poll.

I don't have the desire to repeat myself, and nor do I see the value in discussing the issue with someone with such obvious prejudice towards the data.

Namaste.
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igotthisguitar



Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kuhn & his paradigm theory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Samuel_Kuhn

Synochronicity is cool, albeit seemingly non-falsifiable in a strictly Popperian sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronicity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper

What now mind you of the OUIJA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija

TOO CREEPY !!! Shocked
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:05 am    Post subject: Re: What parapsychology lacks Reply with quote

hermes.trismegistus wrote:

By your standards, psychology, cognitive science, psychiatry and a number of other fields wouldn't classify as science. They rarely seek to repeat results, and rarely have 'reliably demonstrated, repeatable results' even when they attempt.


It's a poor science that can't offer repeatable results. Indeed I would classify many aspects of psychology (my major BTW) as not a hard science. There are, however, many experiments in psychology that offer reliable, repeatable results. Conditioning experiments with rats, for example, is an example of a paradigm experiment, run by most psych students, and offers predictable results.

Quote:
Sorry, but this lacks validity. Meta-analysis doesn't show lesser statistically relevant effects - they show more. And your suggestion that experimental error evens out results lacks any validity whatsoever, and borders on a delusional disregard for the data.


http://skepdic.com/metaanalysis.html
http://www.skepticreport.com/psychics/ganzfeld3.htm

Quote:
I don't have the desire to repeat myself, and nor do I see the value in discussing the issue with someone with such obvious prejudice towards the data.


Getting out of the kitchen because of the heat, huh?

You might also want to review:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha

A wonderful example of how one of the highest profile parapsychological labs could be easily duped.
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