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Should there be a permanent "Warning"" sticky

 
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Should there be a sticky where people can give a "heads up" about a certain school?
Yes it's a good idea
76%
 76%  [ 19 ]
No it's a bad idea
16%
 16%  [ 4 ]
Stop dreaming...it will never happen
8%
 8%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 25

Author Message
SHANE02



Joined: 04 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:55 am    Post subject: Should there be a permanent "Warning"" sticky Reply with quote

I find the search engine here very strange, and there are allways people asking "Is this school o.k?"

Do you think there should be a (moderated) sticky at at the top of this forum where people can post their bad experiences with a school?

Maybe people could post good experieces too?

What do you think?
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fredinkorea



Joined: 30 Apr 2006

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Should there be a permanent "Warning"" st Reply with quote

SHANE02 wrote:
I find the search engine here very strange, and there are allways people asking "Is this school o.k?"

Do you think there should be a (moderated) sticky at at the top of this forum where people can post their bad experiences with a school?

Maybe people could post good experieces too?

What do you think?


Good idea
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted bad idea. In Korea libel is an offense. Last thing we need is some school or chain getting this site shut down or banned in Korea.
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corroonb



Joined: 04 Aug 2006

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think its libel if individuals aren't named. I don't know about Korean law but if the criticism is true and in the public interest then it can't be treated as libel. How can authorities in Korea have a foreign-based website shut, especially one as popular as Dave's? Also how can people in Korea be prevented from using it? There is a danger it might become a blacklist but if the original post states that all posts are opinion and should not be treated as fact, then it would be useful. A disclaimer would also be good, " the posts that follow are the opinions of individuals and the website neither endorses or condemns such opinions".
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seoulsista



Joined: 31 Aug 2005

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Libel has to be proven in order to shut down a website. Now, that of course is in a fair judicial system that requires due dilligence to prove a claim so...? They can't just say "My company had negative and/or untrue things written about it. They have to go out and prove that they cannot find teachers with a reasonable amount of effort and that the negative post(s) is directly responsible.

They warning should be taken as just that. Also, have some faith in people. I hate the company I worked for last year but I wouldn't put them on there.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

corroonb wrote:
(1) I don't think its libel if individuals aren't named. I don't know about Korean law but if the criticism is true and in the public interest then it can't be treated as libel.(2) How can authorities in Korea have a foreign-based website shut, especially one as popular as Dave's? (3) Also how can people in Korea be prevented from using it? There is a danger it might become a blacklist but if the original post states that all posts are opinion and should not be treated as fact, then it would be useful.(4) A disclaimer would also be good, " the posts that follow are the opinions of individuals and the website neither endorses or condemns such opinions".


(Numbers are mine)

1. Nope, libel is also for companies. If I were a newspaper reporter and wrote that (insert name of popular burger chain restaurant here) put rat poison in their burgers I could be sued for libel.

2. They can block the server(s). China can do that, why not Korea? Dave's isn't THAT popular, there are only a few hundred REGULAR users. I know it says there are a lot more users, but most of those are (a) socks (b) newbies who post to ask one or two questions and then never again (c) trolls (d) Banned or who don't post here anymore.

3. How many Koreans (apart from recruiters) use this site anyway? (See #2)

4. I'm fairly sure it has a disclaimer already.


That said, I think the chance of Dave's being shut down is remote. However why take any chances? And as other posters have pointed out in other threads, about 90% of blacklists are just "axe-grinding". So it would be rather pointless, no?
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SHANE02



Joined: 04 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People are free to post a warning to others if they have a terrible experience at a school right? I've seen many over time.

So why not have them all in one easy to get at thread?
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

seoulsista wrote:
Libel has to be proven in order to shut down a website. Now, that of course is in a fair judicial system that requires due dilligence to prove a claim so...? They can't just say "My company had negative and/or untrue things written about it. They have to go out and prove that they cannot find teachers with a reasonable amount of effort and that the negative post(s) is directly responsible.

They warning should be taken as just that. Also, have some faith in people. I hate the company I worked for last year but I wouldn't put them on there.


You must be from North America where the rule of law has some weight.

Here in the land of the Morning (NOT) Calm - truth is NOT a defense against liable or slander and due process is more a matter of who has deeper pockets. Blocking a server is NOT that difficult a task to do.

2nd point is that the schools, recruiters who you would like to put on a "warning list" here are also the main source of revenue for this board - hence - it will never happen. Retailers (Dave selling ads on this BBS) won't bite the hand that feeds him (schools and recruiters who buy the ads).

I am the one who voted, "Stop dreaming...it will never happen" here on Dave's BBS.

If you want a warning site, try some of the blacklists or the hakwon checklist. ( http://www.hagwonchecklist.com/ )

.
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Homer
Guest




PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main problem with most (all ?) blacklists is that there is no real checking of claims before a school is blacklisted.

Mostly all it takes is one story/claim from one (often anonymous) teacher and voila the school is put up as a hell hole. One of my former schools was put up on a blacklist while I worked there. I was ending my contract (3 weeks left) and up the school went. Why? Some teacher who had worked there and who pulled a run to mommy because Korea was not for him posted all sorts of stories about the school (all untrue) yet the school was blacklisted.

This is a major problem with blacklists, what you get on there is all too often unreliable and heresay.

Here, if a teacher bashes a school it is mostly taken as cash by people...if someone asks questions or clarifications he or she gets pasted with insults as the shields go up in favour of the poor teacher.

Teachers do get screwed by bad school and this does need to be adressed but you need to double check the info before your blacklist a school. Get confirmation from other sources. Make sure the claim is based on reality and facts and not just on some teachers hate-on.

How do you propose (OP) this is done on the Cafe?

Also UM made a very valid point about libel...if you post a schools name (or recruiters) and details (adress and other such information) and then bash said organization then the door is wide open for a libel charge or even for a slander charge.

Why do that?
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Captain Corea



Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has anyone actually been through a libel case? I had a defamation case and the burden of proof was on the "victim" - to prove that what was said was wrong and that it damaged them.

That being said though, this web site is not opperated in Korea - I doubt very much that Korean libel laws are applicable.
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SHANE02



Joined: 04 Jun 2003

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again:

SHANE02 wrote:
People are free to post a warning to others if they have a terrible experience at a school right? I've seen many over time.

So why not have them all in one easy to get at thread?
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ttompatz



Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHANE02 wrote:
Again:

SHANE02 wrote:
People are free to post a warning to others if they have a terrible experience at a school right? I've seen many over time.

So why not have them all in one easy to get at thread?


Because DAVE won't shoot himself in the foot.

It makes it too easy for his clients to see when they have bad comments made about themselves or their schools and they will quit advertising here.
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chronicpride



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Homer wrote:
The main problem with most (all ?) blacklists is that there is no real checking of claims before a school is blacklisted.

Mostly all it takes is one story/claim from one (often anonymous) teacher and voila the school is put up as a hell hole. One of my former schools was put up on a blacklist while I worked there. I was ending my contract (3 weeks left) and up the school went. Why? Some teacher who had worked there and who pulled a run to mommy because Korea was not for him posted all sorts of stories about the school (all untrue) yet the school was blacklisted.

This is a major problem with blacklists, what you get on there is all too often unreliable and heresay.

Here, if a teacher bashes a school it is mostly taken as cash by people...if someone asks questions or clarifications he or she gets pasted with insults as the shields go up in favour of the poor teacher.

Teachers do get screwed by bad school and this does need to be adressed but you need to double check the info before your blacklist a school. Get confirmation from other sources. Make sure the claim is based on reality and facts and not just on some teachers hate-on.

How do you propose (OP) this is done on the Cafe?

Also UM made a very valid point about libel...if you post a schools name (or recruiters) and details (adress and other such information) and then bash said organization then the door is wide open for a libel charge or even for a slander charge.

Why do that?


Agreed. The only way that this would work is if there was a way to confirm that the teacher is not embellishing or malicious. Over here, teachers tend to be as trustworthy, pound for pound, as directors and recruiters. Then you have the teachers who come over and just don't end up liking Korea and take it out on their employer, online. Or those incessant complainers who complained at their jobs in the west and then- surprise- complain at their jobs over here. Then you've got the guys with only 1 or 2 schools of experience making industry-wide assumptions and broad stereotypes in the bash threads. One-sided, unverifiable testimonies already dilute the integrity of research on here as it is. Another platform to gripe about schools is not in order. A platform to verify everything that is being said by either side as being legit, is much more better served.
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