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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:51 pm Post subject: Vista, DirectX10 and the future of PC gaming |
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http://blogs.technet.com/windowsvista/articles/447226.aspx
[img]http://blogs.technet.com/photos/blog_photo_gallery/images/447209/original.aspx[/img]
Hold off buying a video card until Vista and DX10 video cards come out!
Suddenly I want to get a kickass gaming system soon. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| It certainly looks exciting. |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I always felt that playing games on the PC gave the best possible experience. The games are also more exciting. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Each and every incarnation of DX has brought substantial advancements. DX 10 is looking like a real jump as well.
The new crop of cards isn't far off now (before Christmas for both ATI [r600] and Nvidia [G80], both taped out already) and it will be tragic to be running a DX9 card with Vista or the ensuing games.
I remeber seeing screenshots of HL2 in CX8 and DX9 modes. DX8 looked pathetic. |
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Wrench
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:56 am Post subject: |
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I use to play the don't upgrade game wait untill next big release blah blah.
Heck most people started using dx9 not that long ago. How long do you think its gone be before they start using dx10. This futureproof stuff is bs as well. Usually first gen of anything has major flaws and problems (look at the dx9 family of cards)
Don't hold your breath remember most stuff is PR. I've been using vista beta for two months and if the release date is some where in October which they want, man vista will become known as blowupista. Its not ready, there are to many bugs still not just in the advanced options power users use but in every day UI.
All DX10 is a big ploy by ms to get everyone to buy their new OS because DX10 will never be on winxp. Guess what all the millions of people owning dx9/8 cards and windows xp aren't just going to toss everything they own in the trash for the sake of some eye candy.
IMHO games don't need any more eye candy then there is already available. Companies should really start focusing on playabilty and quality, there has been way to many games come out recently that look fantastic but suck ass because the overall quality of the game is mediocre at best. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| Wrench wrote: |
I use to play the don't upgrade game wait untill next big release blah blah.
Heck most people started using dx9 not that long ago. How long do you think its gone be before they start using dx10. This futureproof stuff is bs as well. Usually first gen of anything has major flaws and problems (look at the dx9 family of cards)
Don't hold your breath remember most stuff is PR. I've been using vista beta for two months and if the release date is some where in October which they want, man vista will become known as blowupista. Its not ready, there are to many bugs still not just in the advanced options power users use but in every day UI.
All DX10 is a big ploy by ms to get everyone to buy their new OS because DX10 will never be on winxp. Guess what all the millions of people owning dx9/8 cards and windows xp aren't just going to toss everything they own in the trash for the sake of some eye candy.
IMHO games don't need any more eye candy then there is already available. Companies should really start focusing on playabilty and quality, there has been way to many games come out recently that look fantastic but suck ass because the overall quality of the game is mediocre at best. |
DX9 is at least 3 years old mate. We're talking Radeon 9700!! With speed-ramp-ups in hardware, I don't play the waiting game either. But if we are talking ground-level, hardware support for the next API that will be used in 95% of all future titles for the next 3 or 4 years, that I will wait for.
Some great games have come out in the last year or so (full DX9), relying as much on the engine as the gameplay.
Let's not forget that we are jaded; not all that long ago, originality was easier to accomplish than it is today. At least in some genres, this is especially noticeable, less so in others, but a pervasive problem nonetheless. The bar has been raised so many times, it's just getting harder to do.
I am all for photo-realism in gaming. I can't wait until DX10 is mature and see what the titles will look like under it. From what I have seen so far, DX10 is a huge leap, even over DX9. Everytime MS brings forward a new version of DX, the same criticism is brought up; it's just a marketing ploy, etc... . This is easily debunked. Go back and look at some screenshots, or (as I have), play games with a DX8 card, then a DX9. The difference is night and day.
The idea they are just trying to see Vista is absurd; Vista is money in the bank. With or without a new API version, it's sold. Vista needed DX10 to run, that's true, but game devs are always ready for more tools as it helps them sell games as well. Everybody wins, except the poor people who will have bought a DX 9 card just months before DX10 came. That is their own lack of foresight, impatience or whatever. Technology will always advance, we just get tired of footing the bill.
There does have to be a balance between looks and gameplay, and I think that is being achieved to a reasonable extent. It's all about what people want. One could put together the greatest game - another HL1 - but with sub-par graphics, it just won't fly. Engines also have a huge bearing on gameplay, so the idea of one without the other is an impossibility.
The idea that companies are only looking at the graphics can only be used against the companies that make engines and games, not the ones who license the engine. PREY is one such situation. They knew what they were getting in the engine (Doom 3), so they made a pretty cool game (albeit too long) without giving any thought to the graphics. Quake 4 is another. Raven license the engine, and only need to work on gameplay.
Looking at Valve, they made a great engine (SOURCE) and a great game. Same with Id (Doom 3 engine and game), Starbreeze (Riddick engine and game) and People can Fly (PAIN engine - Painkiller)...they all made great engines and good games.
Yeah, lot of crapola games have come out as well, but when wasn't that true? For every Wolf3D, there were a host of forgettables.
I'm all for DX10. It will look really good, be around for 3 or 4 years, allowing us to get our moneys worth from our hardware, and make significant advances possible both in graphics and gameplay. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:05 am Post subject: |
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Of course I'm now thinking I should have waited for Vista and DX10 cards before I bought my 7900GT.......... But, I've never bought cutting edge. It's to expensive and potentially buggy. I'll do the usual and wait up to about a year before I switch to Vista and a DX10 card. Should save a lot of money that way and get a mature product. But that means going for a year knowing something cooler and better than what I'm running is out there waiting.....
Aigo.....the tortures of being into tech...... |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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The only thing that may be buggy about DX10 is the software. The hardware is as good as done. Buggy hardware means a catastrophe (GeForce 5800 anyone?) and that is something that Nvidia can't have yet again, and ATI couldn't stand to hole their already precarious balance in the market.
So, it's not the cards that will be trouble (if there is any), but the DX software and the first round of games. Patch, patch, patch... |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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Well, to say that GPUs have become larger because of DX is a bit misleading. GPUs have surpassed CPUs in their complexity and transistor numbers, so the growth is accounted for. DX created guidelines for the chip makers to adhere to, but who knows what they would have done if there were another API set as a standard? My guess is they would have gotten bigger under any API. However, heat is becoming an issue, as is power consumption, so they better do something before long. Smaller dies, new fabbing, faster silicon...something....anything, but the idea of a 500W PSU is just stupid.
MS writes for the XBOX first - it is their cash cow. Burger King don't make Big Macs kind of thing. They port to PC to please the hardcore PC users, but the ports are typically very lacking and of poor quality in some areas. Higher res textures, sharper, etc... ,but a crawling framerate or some other buggy behavior. Halo was a PC disaster, and Halo2 was only marignally better. It's a shame as well; Halo looked like a great game, but one I can say for the record, I have never once played myself.
The big question is, do we trust MS to know what's best for us in gaming? I guess most people do, because nobody is pushing on their own for another API. Carmack still writes for OGL, but who knows how long that will last? The way MS is going, they won't provide any back-end support for any other API and the devs will have to write the whole thing themselves, drivers and all.
Persoanlly, I trust that MS is on the right track with DX, and thankfully, because as I said, nobody is willing to buck the trend and go with something else. Carmack has the clout, but if some upstart company wants to write for anything but DX, heaven help them, because MS sure won't.
What DX10 is doing with the GPU is really interesting. It will virtualize the hardware, and in doing so, create multiple threads on the GPU, much like a CPU behaves. The GPU will have fewer redundant cycles and will be more fully utilized, comparatively speaking. DX10 will also optimize a number of different ideas, the main one being the occlusion and culling. Less work will be wasted drawing scenes or objects that are needlessly renered, as it wont be displayed. HSR (I think that was it - Hidden Scene Removal) was a big deal some time ago, but it was never fully fleshed out, and GPUs continued to do a lot of wasted work. With DX, this is brought to the fore, making the GPU more efficient.
| MS Lady from video wrote: |
| This is an artists representation of what we think the same scene will look like under Direct X 10... |
Right. Show me the money. Is it so far off we can't even get one render wit h it? Man...right after they show a host of games using it, we get shown an artists conception of what it will look like? Sheesh...it's one frame!!
Ah well...they are busy, I guess. |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:48 am Post subject: |
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I agree with a lot of what you've said. I don't mean that Microsoft should write games on the PC first before the XBOX, I'm referring to the other companies like Blizzard, ID, Sierra etc. The more companies involved the better. It seems Microsoft has invested smartly on DX unlike OpenGL which I haven't heard of much since getting Quake2 to work on Linux.
The XBOX will probably go the ways of the Apple Mac.They will sell but only as far as their pretty boxes could take them until pink becomes the next colour.
Speaking of Halo/2, I could not play that game with a controller, nor do I think playing FPS on any console is natural. Its hard to get away from the typical AWSD keyboard mouse setup.
| Quote: |
| Right. Show me the money. Is it so far off we can't even get one render wit h it? Man...right after they show a host of games using it, we get shown an artists conception of what it will look like? Sheesh...it's one frame!! |
Hahah, great pickup. Everyone commented on that, but I think the real deal is not far off from that.
Did you check out Crysis? |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:07 am Post subject: |
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BTW, if you check my first post on that link, you can find the same 2 images (picture 6 and 7):
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| In Pictures 6 and 7, we see artist conceptions of one certain Windows Vista wallpaper with mountains overlooking a water body. The artist renderings were created using Microsoft Flight Simulator X in DirectX9 and DirectX10 respectively. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| rocklee wrote: |
| It seems Microsoft has invested smartly on DX unlike OpenGL which I haven't heard of much since getting Quake2 to work on Linux. |
Doom 3 engine is OpenGL. Quake 4, PREY...
I missed the screenies in your link. I will go and take a closer look. Thanks for posting them.
The Crysis looks nuts - par for the course with those guys! |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| They're openGL? Damn I was wondering why there weren't many games on the Mac. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Demophobe wrote: |
The Crysis looks nuts - par for the course with those guys! |
I wonder if they'll get the Korean down properly the way the last Splinter Cell did... |
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