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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:49 pm Post subject: On Israeli Human Rights Violations and U.S. Complicity... |
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Excerpted from Thomas Harris, Black Sunday (New York: Penguin, 1975).
This literary evidence suggests that at least some Americans have long been cognizant of Israeli human rights violations -- which it illustrates graphically. It also shows how, in spite of these issues, Americans can better understand and even sympathize with Israelis and their mindset than they can antiIsraeli Arab and Iranian guerrillas, who alienate Americans with their extremist ideology, beligerent rhetoric, and the demonstrated pattern of their strategies, and tactics �
In Black Sunday, Black September guerrillas "Dahlia Iyad" and "Muhammad Fasil" run a terrorist operation against the United States. They plan to employ a large, convex-shaped charge, attached to a blimp deployed over the Superbowl in New Orleans.
When raiding Black September in Beirut, Israeli commandos uncover the plot. Tel Aviv sends Mossad "Major David Kabakov" and his team to intercept the guerrillas. Kabakov's FBI liaison is "Sam Corley."
While operating in the United States, Kabakov often acts behind the FBI's back, torturing Arab suspects, for example, much to Corley's chagrin. Kabakov plans to interrogate a suspected Black September associate without involving Corley�
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Kabakov would have preferred to keep Corley out of it. So far, the FBI agent knew nothing of this business of Jerry Sapp and his boat. Kabakov wanted to pursue it alone. He needed to talk to Sapp before the man wrapped himself in the Constitution.
Kabakov did not mind violating a man's rights, his dignity, or his person if the violation provided immediate benefits. The fact of doing it did not bother him, but the seed within him that was nourished by the success of these tactics made him uneasy�
Kabakov recognized that the things he did marked his mind as surely as they marked his body. He wanted to think that his increasing impatience with the restraints of the law were [sic] entirely the result of his experience, that he felt anger against these obstacles just as he felt stiffness in old wounds on winter mornings.
But this was not entirely true. The seed of his attitudes was in his nature, a fact he had discovered years ago near Tiberias, Galilee.
He was en route to inspect some positions on the Syrian border when he stopped his jeep at a well on a mountainside�Leaning against his jeep�Kabakov watched a flock of sheep grazing above him�A sense of aloneness pressed around him and made him aware of the shape and position of his body in these great tilted spaces. And then he saw an eagle, high, riding a thermal, wingtip feathers splayed like fingers, slipping sideways over the mountain's face, his shadow slipping fast over the rocks. The eagle was not hunting sheep, for it was winter and there were no lambs among them, but it was above the sheep and they saw it and baaed among themselves�
And then he realized that he loved the eagle better than the sheep and that he always would and that, because he did, because it was in him to do it, he could never be perfect in the sight of God.
Kabakov was glad that he would never have any real power (205-206). |
Later, Kabakov and Corley and their respective teams corner Fasil at the New Orleans Superdome, but still have not located Black September's explosives�
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Fasil ran toward the Superdome. Twice he stopped to fire at Kabakov. Kabakov felt the wind of the second one on his face as he dived for cover.
Fasil�disappeared into the Superdome.
Kabakov heard a challenge and a shot as he ran to the entrance. FBI agents were coming from the other way, through the dome. He hoped they had not killed Fasil�
"Is he hit?" Kabakov asked.
"I don't think so," an agent replied�
Fasil could not escape. The trick would be in taking him alive and forcing him to tell where the plastic was hidden. Taking Fasil alive would be like trying to grab a rattlesnake by the head�
"Corley's getting gas and smoke," [Sergeant] Moshevsky [reported to Kabakov].
The voice from behind the cement bag barricade had a weird lilt. "Why don't you come and get me, Major Kabakov? How many of you will die trying to take me alive, do you suppose? You'll never do it. Come, come, Major. I have something for you�"
[Kabakov] was afraid Fasil would kill himself rather than wait for the gas�
[Kabakov assaulted Fasil's position and disabled the guerrilla.]
�Kabakov had the wrist of the gun hand, snapping his head from side to side to avoid a finger strike at his eyes, and with his free hand broke Fasil's collarbone on both sides�
Moshevsky was here now, raising Fasil's head and pulling his jaw and tongue forward to be sure his air passage was clear. The snake was taken.
Corley heard the screaming as he ran into the Superdome with a teargas gun. It was coming from behind the stack of cement, where two FBI agents stood uncertainly, Moshevsky facing them, full of menace.
Corley found Kabakov sitting on Fasil, his face an inch from the Arab's. "Where is it, Fasil? Where is it, Fasil?" He was flexing the fractures in Fasil's collarbones. Corley could hear the grating noise. "Where's the plastic?"
Corley's revolver was in his hand. He pressed the muzzle to the bridge of Kabakov's nose. "Stop it, Kabakov. God damn you, stop it."
Kabakov spoke, but not to Corley. "Don't shoot him, Moshevsky." He looked up at Corley. "This is the only chance we'll have to find it. You don't have to make a [legally-admissible] case against Fasil."
"We'll interrogate him. Take your hands off him."
Three heartbeats later: "All right. You'd better read to him from that card in your wallet�"
Fasil [and another guerrilla] was held on charges of illegal entry and conspiracy to violate customs regulations� The embassy of the United Arab Republic arranged for them to be represented by a New Orleans law firm. Neither Arab said anything. Corley hammered at Fasil for hours Sunday night in the prison infirmary and received nothing but a mocking stare�(281-284). |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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On another thread -- indeed, in several threads -- guerrilla and terrorist sympathizers like Ddeubel, R.S. Refugee, Igotthisguitar, and now, BLT Lawyer, have shown a complete unwillingness to treat Hezbollah's obstinacy as an antagonist because they remain wholly and exclusively focused on their hatred of the United States and the W. Bush Administration, their apparent antisemitic worldview, and their "unhappiness" with human rights violations (as long as and especially as the discussion relates to Israeli human rights violations) -- if not all of these variables, then one combination or another, and to varying degrees, are at play.
When I recently cited Hezbollah's terroristic tactics, for example, BLT Lawyer responded...
| BLT Lawyer wrote: |
As opposed to the killing of women/children/civilians by the "good guys?"
Please. This is weak. |
| BLT Lawyer wrote: |
| So, not one of you is willing to deal with the issue? |
I submit, in an effort to get this thread going again, that those of us in the United States who support Tel Aviv in this and other crises do so with many doubts and reservations about our Israeli friends and allies, and, in any case, with our eyes wide open.
And this should be so, for there is much to resolve and sort out in the Middle East, particularly with respect to Israel's treatment of neighboring peoples and cultures.
However, I think those of us who support Tel Aviv also agree -- and here is where we differ with the above-mentioned posters -- that solving these issues will not be accomplished by simply advocating bin Laden, Ahmadinejad, or Nasrallah's simplistic and distorted worldview on the Arab-Israeli Conflict and the United States.
Consider the fundamental problem, root and branch...
| Ted Koppel wrote: |
| ...do you believe that the State of Israel, in any form, whether in reduced size, or otherwise, has the right to exist? |
| Nasrallah wrote: |
| ...there is no legal and legitimate state called Israel... |
| Koppel wrote: |
| I would suggest...that perhaps the State of Israel is there for good now. |
| Nasrallah wrote: |
| ...I don�t accept this result. |
Nightline (20 Oct. 2000)
http://www.netanyahu.org/inwithezlead.html
I would propose that the antiIsraeli Arab Middle East and Iran need to accept Tel Aviv and stop their tantrums. This would put both Israel and the U.S. govt in a far better position to moderate Tel Aviv's behavior and begin untangling the gordian knot that we are confronted with there.
Asking Israel to commit suicide is no answer, and it is certainly not the answer for someone like our disingenous friend Ddeubel who claims to love peace while sympathizing with terrorists and rogue states, ad nauseum.
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| On another thread -- indeed, in several threads -- guerrilla and terrorist sympathizers like Ddeubel, R.S. Refugee, Igotthisguitar, and now, BLT Lawyer, have shown a complete unwillingness to treat Hezbollah's obstinacy as an antagonist because they remain wholly and exclusively focused on their hatred of the United States and the W. Bush Administration, their apparent antisemitic |
Is that the best you can do, Bushie? Aren't you the one saying my trhetoric is too grand, too biased, too everything? One thing I am not that you have yet again proven yourself to be: a liar.
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| However, I think those of us who support Tel Aviv also agree -- |
Partisan. Hmmm... that always helps end conflicts.
I, in fact, despite your lying bullshit, support neither. I, in fact, have no opinion on the conflict as I see it as intractable. There is no solution there. They will war as long as they exist, so why bother talking about it? Additionally, the situation is so convoluted the **only** possible solution, if one exists, is to simply throw out everything that came before and simply choose peace. They simply must choose peace because the whole chicken/egg issue will prevent any meaningful resolution.
When the people of both "nations" deide peace is more important, THEY will make it happen. Nothing you think or do is going to change that.
And lying about others' beliefs and convictions to satisfy your sad, sick little ego on a message board is just..... sad.
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:14 am Post subject: |
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For EFL trainer feels that the US government is main enemy not Hizzbollah or Al Qaeda.It is not that he loves them , he just hates the US government far more.
He is another one who being a dissident wannabe is a fashion statement
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| BLT Lawyer wrote: |
| Aren't you the one saying my trhetoric is too grand, too biased, too everything? |
Before I can answer this, as usual, you are going to have to clarify what it was that you were trying to say in your drunken stupor. And if you are going to simply cut off one of my quotes like that, I think you should at least use ellipses and do it at a logical stopping point.
In any case, what, pray tell, is "trhetoric"? Is it dinosaur rhetoric? If so, yes, your trhetoric is not only millions of years obsolete, but also so strange that only a paleontologist could possibly translate it and respond to it with any reasonable degree of certainty...
And how might the Israelis "choose peace" when they are surrounded by hostiles who want nothing else but to annihilate them by any and all means available to them?
I think you have a hopelessly foolish perspective on this problem, BLT.
Last edited by Gopher on Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| When the people of both "nations" deide peace is more important, THEY will make it happen. Nothing you think or do is going to change that. |
You mean that Israel would not want to have peace with Lebanon?
Israel had good relations w/ Iran before Khomeni came to power.
Israel offered the Palestinian side Gaza and the West Bank and 30 Billion dollars.
Israel withdrew from Gaza and they were attacked more.
Israel withdrew from Lebanon and they were continually attacked.
The problem is that Israel's enemies are commited to destroying Israel. That is current reality- not your fantasy.
Moreover Bathists , Khomeni followers and Bin Laden supporters don't accept the idea of co existance. - That is the problem. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
[. (1) There is no solution there. They will war as long as they exist, so why bother talking about it?
(2) And lying about others' beliefs and convictions to satisfy your sad, sick little ego on a message board is just..... sad. |
(numbers are mine)
1. If that is your view, then I suggest you follow it and stop talking about it. That would go a long way to creating the peace you claim to so lovingly support...at least on this message board
2. Yes, we all agree on this. So stop doing it please. |
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in_seoul_2003
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: |
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...
Last edited by in_seoul_2003 on Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
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If it is in the interests of the West to apply what is evidently its illusory principles of democratic debate and the responsibility of the individual to forever exercise a consciousness that questions rather than placates, being your supposed bulwark of individuality, I would suppose you should thank the Arab guerillas for their willingness to add to the economy of a plural dialogue.
by in_seoul_2003
what a sentence......and what a load of crap. liberal arts degree???? good luck making a living out of creating such convoluted sentences....esl might be it for ya. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:35 am Post subject: |
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"This literary evidence suggests that at least some Americans have long been cognizant of Israeli human rights violations -- which it illustrates graphically."
Indeed it doesn't strike me as odd at all that a nation most supportive of Zionist crimes would simultaneously exemplify a symbolic show of purging their muddied conscience with a token discourse of disapproval to those very crimes. Nothing exceptionally rational here.
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In Seoul:
Gopher referred to "some Americans", yet you switched the subject to "a nation", thus implying a singularity of interest and purpose. But I don't think we can neccessarliy assume that Thomas Harris' point in putting thise details in his novel was to purge the American consicence, or even that that was the effect that it might have unwittingly had on his readership.
In nations where the production of art and literature is directly managed by the state, I would be hard pressed to think of an example of "conscience-purging" such as you posit in regards to the private sector American media. I am unaware, for example, of Goebbels ordering his minions to include occasional references to Nazi atrocities in their propaganda, in order to help the average German sleep better at night. The bulk of the evidence seems to be that the Nazis went to great lengths to ensure that their crimes did not become public knowledge.
Violent authoritarian regimes DO sometimes produce romanticized, quasi-sympathetic portrayals of their victims, as can likely be found in Southern American representations of the "good negro", or Stalinist depictions of happy peasants during the collectivization. However, the purpose there is not to feign cathartic regret over the atrocities of slavery and Stalinism, but rather to deny that any such atrocities are taking place.
In the case of Black Sunday, I would say it's quite possible that Harris inclusion of unflattering details of Israeli policy was not intended to either a) turn public opinion against Israel, or b) soothe the public's guilt over supporting Israel, but rather simply to add an element of realism to the story. He's writing about the middle east, and he's aware that Israeli human rights violations are a fact of life in that region, so he includes details of those human rights violations.
Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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in_seoul_2003
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by in_seoul_2003 on Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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in_seoul_2003
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:17 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by in_seoul_2003 on Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| A case in point is your rehashing of the endless monologue of Zionists being surrounded by hostiles that wish to purge Jews by driving them into the sea. |
true or not?
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First, that is no more true today than it was 50 or 60 or 70 years ago. Even in Lebanon, a country you might suspect of wanting to purge itself of Jews most imminently, you will find ethnic Jews whos ancestors have been living there untroubled for several centuries. The Hezballah know where they are, it's no secret. Yet they remain unperturbed by their presence. On the other hand, when the presence of Jews becomes sytematized in a doctrine of Zionist policy as evidenced by its transplantation of colonialism in Palestine, a certain hatred emerges. |
Hizzbollah attacked Lebanese Jews during the 80's. The few that were left.
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| Negative attitudes toward Jews increased after 1948, and by 1967, most Lebanese Jews had emigrated - to the United States, Canada, France, and Israel. The remaining Jewish community was particularly hard hit by the civil wars in Lebanon, and by 1967 most Jews had emigrated. In the 1980s, Hizballah kidnapped several Lebanese Jewish businessmen, and in the 2004 elections, only one Jew voted in the municipal elections. By all accounts, there are fewer than 100 Jews left in Lebanon. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
in fact your whole story is off |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
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| A case in point is your rehashing of the endless monologue of Zionists being surrounded by hostiles that wish to purge Jews by driving them into the sea. |
true or not?
Hizzbollah attacked Lebanese Jews during the 80's. The few that were left.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
in fact your whole story is off |
Interesting post.
However, why do you not mention how, over the years, Israeli agents have committed numerous acts of terror in various Middle Eastern countries inc. Egypt & Iraq with the explicit intent of forcing the region's "assimilationist" Jews into Israel?
You've no finger pointing here. Simply not important?
You seem somewhat "informed" on the history of Zionism Joo.
Why such blatantly "selective" perception? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| In May and June of 1951, the arms caches of the Zionist underground in Iraq, which had been supplied from Palestine/Israel since the Farhud of 1942, were discovered. Many Jews were arrested and two Zionist activists, Joseph Basri and Abraham Salih, were tried and hanged for three of the bombings. A secret Israeli inquiry in 1960 reported that most of the witnesses believed that Jews had been responsible for the bombings, but found no evidence that they were ordered by Israel. The issue remains unresolved: Iraqi activists in Israel still regularly charge that Israel used violence to engineer the exodus, while Israeli officials of the time vehemently deny it. According to historian Moshe Gatt, few historians believe that Israel was actually behind the bombing campaign -- based on factors such as records indicating that Israel did not want such a rapid registration rate and that bomb throwing at Jewish targets was common before 1950, making the Istiqlal Party a more likely culprit than the Zionist underground. In any case, the remainder of Iraq's Jews left over the next few decades, and had mostly gone by 1970. |
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