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endofthewor1d
Joined: 01 Apr 2003
Location: the end of the wor1d.
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 Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: to (verb) vs. (verb)ing |
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i ran into a bit of a problem today teaching one of my classes. i had the following sentences, and the students had to choose whether to use "to (verb)" or "(verb)ing". being a native speaker, i easily knew which ones used which, but when they asked me why, i drew a blank. anyone out there who can tell me the answer, i'd appreciate it. thanks.
Examples:
They want us _______ some paper. (bring)
I don't remember them ________ the copy machine. (use)
1. He asked them ________ the building. (leave)
2. She's worried about him ________ in trouble. (get)
3. They object to us ________ a new car. (buy)
4. I expect you ________ home early. (come)
5. He invited her ________ a movie. (see)
6. She's responsible for him ________ the job. (get)
7. They told us ________ at the office at nine o'clock. (be)
8. I'm tired of you ________ all the time. (complain)
9. We object to her ________ at night. (work) |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: |
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The reason is that different verbs govern different syntactic structures as objects.
Some verbs take the infintive, others take the gerund as objects. (And some govern both, with different meanings depending on which you choose.) As this is a lexical matter (a property of particular verbs), it is not a matter of rule, but a matter of memory.
In another thread on this topic that is running right now on this forum:
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=36740
you can find leads to some generalities that might make useful guidelines for teaching students about this and help them memorize. Look at the post by Tomato for some good technical guidance and take gypsyfish'e advice and get a hold of Swan for some practical classroom stuff for this. (I should also note that you can find a fair amount of nonsense in that thread; indulge carefully.) |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: to (verb) vs. (verb)ing |
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It's perspective/time.
They want us bringing some paper. (They want us when bringing paper? When they are bringing paper they want us?)
They want us to bring some paper. (They want us to bring something: paper.)
I don't remember them using the copy machine. (I don't remember what? Them using the copy machine.)
I don't remember them to use the copy machine. (I don't need to remember them to be able to use the copy machine.)
1. He asked them leaving the building. (He asked them a question while he was leaving the building.)
1. He asked them to leave the building. (He asked people to leave the building.)
2. She's worried about him getting in trouble. (She's worried about him, Why? He might get in trouble.)
2. She's worried about him to get in trouble. (She worries about him because she wants to get in trouble. Huh??)
3. They object to us buying a new car. (They object to what? Us buying a new car. r, do they object to us AS they buy a bnew car? Hee-hee...)
3. They object to us to buy a new car. (They object to what? Us. Why? So they can buy a new car. Huh??)
4. I expect you coming home early. (I expect you while coming home early. Huh?)
4. I expect you to come home early. (I expect you to do something. What? For you to come home early.)
5. He invited her seeing a movie. (He invite her while watching a movie.)
5. He invited her to see a movie. (He invite her to see a movie with him in the future.)
6. She's responsible for him getting the job. (She's the reason he got the job OR she's responsible for him while getting a job.)
6. She's responsible for him to get the job. (She's responsible for him in order to get a future job.)
Etc. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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I would say that some of the examples you've given are just plain wrong.
I am not a grammarian though. There may be certain cases where such forms are admissable, but they are not common usage.
I think that is the crux of the matter. |
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Hanson
Joined: 20 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| I would say that some of the examples you've given are just plain wrong. |
I agree. Some of EFLtrainer's examples made me cringe. Perhaps more training needed for Mr. EFL? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
I would say that some of the examples you've given are just plain wrong.
I am not a grammarian though. There may be certain cases where such forms are admissable, but they are not common usage.
I think that is the crux of the matter. |
The point exactly. Some of them are wrong. Thats why I used both sentences: compare and contrast. Some of them are just strange, however, because they are never used, YET they are possible. English is a very complex language. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Hanson wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
| I would say that some of the examples you've given are just plain wrong. |
I agree. Some of EFLtrainer's examples made me cringe. Perhaps more training needed for Mr. EFL? |
I worry about English teachers who cant sort out that a post was done to illustrate exactly what the OP was asking about. They werent examples, they were comparisons, contrasts. Some work, some dont. The POINT, if you check my post here and on the other thread, should be crystal clear.
C'mon, guys... |
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cubanlord
Joined: 08 Jul 2005
Location: In Japan!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Hanson wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
| I would say that some of the examples you've given are just plain wrong. |
I agree. Some of EFLtrainer's examples made me cringe. Perhaps more training needed for Mr. EFL? |
I worry about English teachers who cant sort out that a post was done to illustrate exactly what the OP was asking about. They werent examples, they were comparisons, contrasts. Some work, some dont. The POINT, if you check my post here and on the other thread, should be crystal clear.
C'mon, guys... |
 I understood EFL'er.  |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
I worry about English teachers who cant sort out that a post was done to illustrate exactly what the OP was asking about. They werent examples, they were comparisons, contrasts. Some work, some dont. The POINT, if you check my post here and on the other thread, should be crystal clear.
C'mon, guys... |
The comparisons here weren't clear to me, but what you wrote in the other thread was very clear and very good. I hope the OP goes there and looks.
The only problem with the distinction that gerunds point backwards in time and infintitives point forward is that I wonder how clearly this principle applies in the verbs that don't allow both forms (this is something I could sit down and explore, but I have other stuff (student assignments) to do right now) and, if it does, how it could be turned into a clear, simple pedagogical preinciple for teaching. It could work out, but my bet is that this is still going to turn out to be largely a matter of memory. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:27 am Post subject: |
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The way your post is worded it sounds to me like you were saying those weird forms are correct.
That's why the double take. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
I worry about English teachers who cant sort out that a post was done to illustrate exactly what the OP was asking about. They werent examples, they were comparisons, contrasts. Some work, some dont. The POINT, if you check my post here and on the other thread, should be crystal clear.
C'mon, guys... |
The comparisons here weren't clear to me, but what you wrote in the other thread was very clear and very good. I hope the OP goes there and looks.
The only problem with the distinction that gerunds point backwards in time and infintitives point forward is that I wonder how clearly this principle applies in the verbs that don't allow both forms (this is something I could sit down and explore, but I have other stuff (student assignments) to do right now) and, if it does, how it could be turned into a clear, simple pedagogical preinciple for teaching. It could work out, but my bet is that this is still going to turn out to be largely a matter of memory. |
Time lines. Walking them can help. Drawing is probably better. Drawing need to be clear.
And chunks. There's good support for learning phrases, or chunks of oft repeated language bits, and practicing generalizing them. Yes, this is partly why certain kinds of drills can help with short-term memory, in particular.
When I study verbs in Korean, for example, I learn the base structure first. Then generalize to past and future. (I do this first by guessing based on what i know of verb conjugations already because it makes me think about the structures rather than jsut filling in blanks.) I'm basically learning the function, but it's repeated, reapplied and slightly different in meaning due to tense/aspect. After I've got all the conjugations I then learn the honorifics and panmal forms. (Unless it's something I need to use NOW, in which case I learn what I need first, then go back and catch up the rest.)
I don't, by the way, support learning tenses in isolation. Learning past, present and future happen so close to together that they are basically concurrent. Why? Because the other way, i.e. learning present tense for six months, then past, etc.... just isn't how we learn in the real world. It is how we ACQUIRE, but that's a different issue. 
| Woland wrote: |
| It could work out, but my bet is that this is still going to turn out to be largely a matter of memory. |
Isn't most learning? Repetition, practice, application, re-presenting, etc..... |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
The way your post is worded it sounds to me like you were saying those weird forms are correct.
That's why the double take. |
Nah... those with a (huh?) were meant to show this wasn't doable.
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