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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: On Iraq: in case you had any optimism left |
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This article at Time magazine is by a journalist who's been living there for 3 years and says it's never been worse. You might be thinking, yeah, we already know it's bad, but this really brings it home.
It's also quite an entertaining read in parts. The opening paragraph describes the 'normal' way he gets in and out of Iraq:
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| A knot begins to form in my stomach exactly at 8 a.m., when I step into the small Fokker F-28 jet that will take me and 50 other passengers from Amman, Jordan, to Baghdad. I know what lies ahead: an hour's uneventful flying over unchanging desert, followed by the world's scariest landing--a steep, corkscrewing plunge into what used to be Saddam Hussein International Airport. Then an eight-mile drive into the city along what's known as the Highway of Death. I've made this trip more than 20 times since Royal Jordanian's civilian flights started three years ago, and you'd expect it would get easier. But the knot takes hold in my stomach every time. |
Then he describes the situation in Baghdad in great detail. I don't see how this is going to end except in civil war, takeover by Iran or another foreign power, or in yet another brutal dictatorship just as bad as Saddam's. The latter seems most likely to me, once America pulls out. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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Back in the Spring I believed the Stratfor analysis which, to briefly sum up, said that all parties- US/Iran/Shia/Sunni had finally come to an agreement and by the summer (I think they indicated early July) it sould be obvious at that point whether the agreement/strategy was going to hold. At that time (the Spring) I was pretty adamant about the US staying, because I thought this anlaysis was right and it would be crazy to quit with the goal almost in sight.
But now it's the end of August, sectarian violence has NOT died down as predicted, and Strafor is strangely silent on the subject of Iraq (I'm sure that if pressed, they'd say it's because they're focusing on Iranian nukes, London bombers, and the situation in Lebanon, but even still...).
I never had much optimism for Iraq, but even that tiny bit has now evaporated.
The US (or, if you prefer, the Bush administration) has created a situation it cannot fix. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| It always was exactly that. The dynamics and logic of the situation made going into Iraq the wrong move from the beginning. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| It always was exactly that. The dynamics and logic of the situation made going into Iraq the wrong move from the beginning. |
That's not what I'm saying- I agree that it clearly always was the wrong move to have gone into Iraq.
But there was a point where it looked like all sides might actually come to an agreement and allow the government to start rebuilding the country.
That window of opportunity has been shut. |
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R. S. Refugee
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| It always was exactly that. The dynamics and logic of the situation made going into Iraq the wrong move from the beginning. |
That's not what I'm saying- I agree that it clearly always was the wrong move to have gone into Iraq.... |
Well, I'm glad to see we agree about that much anyway. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| It always was exactly that. The dynamics and logic of the situation made going into Iraq the wrong move from the beginning. |
That's not what I'm saying- I agree that it clearly always was the wrong move to have gone into Iraq.
But there was a point where it looked like all sides might actually come to an agreement and allow the government to start rebuilding the country.
That window of opportunity has been shut. |
I understood what you were saying. It's just sad that it was allowed to happen because of nothing more than fearmongering.
Ah, well. We are already reaping what we have sown, and the worst is yet to come. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: On Iraq: in case you had any optimism left |
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| Privateer wrote: |
This article at Time magazine is by a journalist who's been living there for 3 years and says it's never been worse. You might be thinking, yeah, we already know it's bad, but this really brings it home.
It's also quite an entertaining read in parts. The opening paragraph describes the 'normal' way he gets in and out of Iraq:
| Quote: |
| A knot begins to form in my stomach exactly at 8 a.m., when I step into the small Fokker F-28 jet that will take me and 50 other passengers from Amman, Jordan, to Baghdad. I know what lies ahead: an hour's uneventful flying over unchanging desert, followed by the world's scariest landing--a steep, corkscrewing plunge into what used to be Saddam Hussein International Airport. Then an eight-mile drive into the city along what's known as the Highway of Death. I've made this trip more than 20 times since Royal Jordanian's civilian flights started three years ago, and you'd expect it would get easier. But the knot takes hold in my stomach every time. |
Then he describes the situation in Baghdad in great detail. I don't see how this is going to end except in civil war, takeover by Iran or another foreign power, or in yet another brutal dictatorship just as bad as Saddam's. The latter seems most likely to me, once America pulls out. |
family friend's son is in Delta Force. He got back from his latest stint in Iraq a couple weeks ago. He says it is worse now than at any other time he's been over there. This is coming from a dude who was participated in the zarqawi "elimination" and guarded Bush when he made his most recent visit. |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Saddam Hussein was a genocidal tyrant who had to be stopped. He massacred over 300,000 of his own people and was trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. His objective was to take over the whole region and murder millions with his evil sons. The Middle East is unquestionably better off without him and only cowardly countries like Canada and France refused to participate in his removal from power and a new path to peace and democray. The alternative would have been far worse with the Saddamites, Khomeniests, and Al Quedists and all their supporters and lovers who hate freedom in charge. Just think of how many 9-11s this prevented and stop hating freedom that others have sacrificed so much for. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Bulsajo wrote: |
Back in the Spring I believed the Stratfor analysis which, to briefly sum up, said that all parties- US/Iran/Shia/Sunni had finally come to an agreement and by the summer (I think they indicated early July) it sould be obvious at that point whether the agreement/strategy was going to hold. At that time (the Spring) I was pretty adamant about the US staying, because I thought this anlaysis was right and it would be crazy to quit with the goal almost in sight.
But now it's the end of August, sectarian violence has NOT died down as predicted, and Strafor is strangely silent on the subject of Iraq (I'm sure that if pressed, they'd say it's because they're focusing on Iranian nukes, London bombers, and the situation in Lebanon, but even still...).
I never had much optimism for Iraq, but even that tiny bit has now evaporated.
The US (or, if you prefer, the Bush administration) has created a situation it cannot fix. |
I'm not eager to let the administration off the hook for this, especially when part of the implicit rationale for their war was 'who cares if the UN doesn't want it, it'll be over and done with in a few months,' but I put the worsening of the situation squarely on the shoulders of the Mehdi army.
'We don't need a verdict'
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In a grungy restaurant with plastic tables in central Baghdad, the young Mahdi Army commander was staring earnestly. His beard was closely cropped around his jaw, his face otherwise cleanshaven. The sleeves of his yellow shirt were rolled down to the wrists despite the intense late-afternoon heat. He spoke matter-of-factly: Sunni Arab fighters suspected of attacking Shiite Muslims had no claim to mercy, no need of a trial.
"These cases do not need to go back to the religious courts," said the commander, who sat elbow to elbow with a fellow fighter in a short-sleeved, striped shirt. Neither displayed weapons. "Our constitution, the Koran, dictates killing for those who kill." |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| I can see it now: US moves out. Iran moves in. Insurgency/civil war continues. Ha ha b+tch! It's yours now. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
| I can see it now: US moves out. Iran moves in. Insurgency/civil war continues. Ha ha b+tch! It's yours now. |
good one. does sound appealing doesn't it? |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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It does, that, my good man. It does.
Think about it; we did in three weeks what Iran couldn't do in eight years. But maintenance is a bitch. |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| If Iran moves in the civil war will be over very, very quickly. In a year or less the Iranians would have the country under control. The choice seems to be either let Bush continue the craziness or let Iran expand to include Iraq. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Yu_Bum_suk wrote: |
| Saddam Hussein was a genocidal tyrant who had to be stopped. He massacred over 300,000 of his own people and was trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. His objective was to take over the whole region and murder millions with his evil sons. The Middle East is unquestionably better off without him and only cowardly countries like Canada and France refused to participate in his removal from power and a new path to peace and democray. The alternative would have been far worse with the Saddamites, Khomeniests, and Al Quedists and all their supporters and lovers who hate freedom in charge. Just think of how many 9-11s this prevented and stop hating freedom that others have sacrificed so much for. |
that is not it.
This is where you made a mistake:
Bathists Khomeni lovers and Bin Laden followers not only hate freedom but they want to take over the whole mideast and more.
That is why they want the US out so they can take over.
9-11 happend before the US went into Iraq and if the mideast isn't changed then it will happen again.
They have to give up their war and if they don't want to give up their war then the US is justified in doing anything and everything to force them to. whatever it takes to force them to give it up is ok.
The US ought to move its forces to Kurdistan.
Besides one thing that eveyone is leaving out is that the Iraqi army is slowly getting stronger and will continue to do so by 2009 it will be more powerful than the insurgents.
Iraq isn't the whole war it is part of the war. Was the US right to go to war against the mideast - Yes.
Last edited by Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee on Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| If Iran moves in the civil war will be over very, very quickly. In a year or less the Iranians would have the country under control. The choice seems to be either let Bush continue the craziness or let Iran expand to include Iraq. |
ROFL. Riiiiight... |
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