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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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 Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: Koreas: Divided by a common language |
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Koreas: Divided by a common language
This is why, if you're going to read a newspaper, make it the International Herald Tribune. It's a real newspaper, as opposed to the Korea Herald.
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If a South Korean asks a North Korean how he is doing, the response will likely be "ilupsopneda," which literally means "not much." It is the North Korean equivalent of "I'm fine, thanks." Many South Koreans attempting a casual chat have been taken aback by this response, and perhaps have hardened their stereotypical view of North Koreans as rather blunt neighbors.
In the South, the Korean expression means: "Mind your own business!"
After six decades of living separated across a tightly sealed border, South and North Koreans find themselves divided by what used to be a common language, so much so that a person from one side often gets bewildered, amused and even mistakenly angered by what a person from the other side says.
When a North Korean says squid, it means octopus in the South; when a South Korean says octopus, it means squid in the North. A word common on both sides, "mije," means "American imperialist" in the North and "Made in the U.S.A." in the South.
It is enough of a problem that the authorities of both Koreas are bypassing their political differences and are compiling a joint dictionary of the Korean language, their first attempt to prevent their languages from drifting further apart.
"Our dictionary is not meant to replace dictionaries or established grammar in the North and South. Nevertheless, it represents our efforts to rediscover our common linguistic roots in preparation for reunification," said Lee Jae Kyu, secretary general of a South Korean government panel of linguists involved in the seven-year compilation of the joint dictionary.
What used to be a single nation was divided into the Communist North and the capitalist South at the end of World War II. So was their language. Two million troops, barbed wire fences and minefields seal off the border.
Both sides jam each other's radio signals. Watching television, reading literature and communicating with people from the other side used to be a serious crime in the South and still is in the North.
After such a divide, the task of compiling a unified dictionary bristles with linguistic minefields sown in the days of Cold War confrontation. What should be done with the word "sooryong," for example? In the North, the word is the highest honorific, only applied to the regime's leader, Kim Jong Il. In the South, it is slightly derogatory, meaning the head of any political faction, clique or even gang of bandits.
And what about "pukgoe?" A term listed in every South Korean dictionary, it means "North Korean puppet regime."
And should the joint dictionary include all those English words that South Koreans use as part of their everyday lingo?
When North Korean defectors are asked to go "shopping" after they arrive in the South, they are at a loss about what that English word means. Likewise, South Koreans puzzle over what North Koreans mean by a "vehicle that goes straight up after takeoff," when the simple English word "helicopter" will do.
"We negotiate and leave out words with too much of a political problem," said Lee, of the South Korean panel of linguists. "We will also leave out many of the foreign words South Koreans have indiscriminately adopted."
"We hope to compile a 300,000-word joint dictionary by 2012," he added.
Today, people from the two Koreas can understand each other in everyday conversation to a large degree because sentence structures and basic vocabulary remain the same. Still, they have diverged, linguists say, to alarming proportions in grammar and vocabulary over the decades.
Dongmu, once an innocuous word for "friend," was banished from South Korea after Communists in the North adopted the term as the Korean equivalent of "comrade." Euiboeui, which means "parents," is seldom heard in the South, after North Korea redefined it as "one who gives the people their most valuable political life and blesses them with a love unsurpassed by that of their biological parents," and reserved it for Kim Jong Il.
Kim Ki Hyok, 35, a North Korean defector who came to South Korea in 1999, said: "When I first got here, the biggest language barrier was all those English words everywhere. 'Wife,' 'size,' 'date,' 'shopping' and 'drive.' These were all new to me."
In a 2001 survey, only 24 percent of defectors from the North said that they understood South Koreans perfectly.
Lee Young Hwan, a South Korean who works with North Korean defectors at Citizens' Alliance for North Korean Human Rights in Seoul, said new defectors "don't understand 60 percent of what South Koreans say, not only because of different vocabulary, but also because of the unfamiliarity of the topics."
Still, for thousands of defectors, linguistic reunification has already begun.
"When we play soccer, we use a mixture of 'corner kick' and other English terminology used by South Koreans and the purely Korean terminology used by North Koreans," said Chun Chi Kyun, a teacher at the Hankyoreh School for teenage North Korean defectors. "It's a bit confusing at first, but they are catching up with South Korean vocabulary really quickly."
Most defectors strive to abandon their Northern accent because it makes them stand out and often works against them in finding jobs.
"Our accent brands us as people who come from a place of poverty," said a defector, Kim Young Nam, 44.
But Kim uses his North Korean background as a business asset: He is an accordion player and leader of a troupe of North Korean entertainers who perform in a beer hall in Seoul. For Southerners, the troupe's graceful dance in traditional dress and woebegone Northern lyrics are a nostalgic throwback to the prewar era when Korea was one nation.
"I first could not understand about 10 percent of South Korean words, but I quickly learned them. But correcting the accent is difficult, however we try. So that gives us a lot of stress," Kim said, using the English word "stress." |
Maybe language-based misunderstandings will make reunification more difficult to achieve than previously thought. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Koreas: Divided by a common language |
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[quote="Troll_Bait"]
| Quote: |
| [size=12]If a South Korean asks a North Korean how he is doing, the response will likely be "ilupsopneda," which literally means "not much." |
I wish the article would be more clear on this. Does it go like this?
1: 안녕하세요?
2: 일업섭니다. (pardon my probably incorrect spelling)
Or is there a different phrase that it answers? |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
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| if you're going to read a newspaper, make it the International Herald Tribune. It's a real newspaper, as opposed to the Korea Herald. |
Absolutely. The Herald & Times are an embarassment. I've been tempted to make classroom activities with my adult students in finding the grammar errors in their pullout ESL sections.
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"We negotiate and leave out words with too much of a political problem," said Lee, of the South Korean panel of linguists. "We will also leave out many of the foreign words South Koreans have indiscriminately adopted."
"We hope to compile a 300,000-word joint dictionary by 2012," he added. |
The sense of this is "we leave out all non-Korean words because they sound too American to the North Koreans and they might pull out of the project", but maybe I'm cynical. The upshot is that there will be a dictionary consisting of fossilized, archaic words in 2012, which young Koreans can chuckle over as they sip their low-fat lattes and listen to Herbie Hancock.
Ken:> |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 4:27 am Post subject: Re: Koreas: Divided by a common language |
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[quote="RACETRAITOR"]
| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| Quote: |
| [size=12]If a South Korean asks a North Korean how he is doing, the response will likely be "ilupsopneda," which literally means "not much." |
I wish the article would be more clear on this. Does it go like this?
1: 안녕하세요?
2: 일업섭니다. (pardon my probably incorrect spelling)
Or is there a different phrase that it answers? |
It's supposed to be 일 없습니다. I had a laugh at that too. I wish they had put a bit of hangul in there too. A bit of foreign lettering never killed a reader. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Koreas: Divided by a common language |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| A bit of foreign lettering never killed a reader. |
You'd be surprised, Mith, what will set some folks off - "*Beep*in' New York Times! I always knew it was pinko rag. Printin' foreigner talk!"
The article doesn't raise what strikes me as the more interesting aspect of the linguistic divide - the use of hanji. With the North having officially eliminated use of hanji and not using them in the educational system, this leaves a potentially large literacy gap in the two countries. If and when reunification comes, my sense is that the lack of this knowledge will automatically relegate many Northerners to lower status positions in the new Korea. (Note: I am not saying here that no one in North Korea knows any hanji, but rather that that knowledge is increasingly restricted.) I wonder if this dictionary will include any hanji equivalents for hangul items. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Koreas: Divided by a common language |
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| Woland wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| A bit of foreign lettering never killed a reader. |
You'd be surprised, Mith, what will set some folks off - "*Beep*in' New York Times! I always knew it was pinko rag. Printin' foreigner talk!"
The article doesn't raise what strikes me as the more interesting aspect of the linguistic divide - the use of hanji. With the North having officially eliminated use of hanji and not using them in the educational system, this leaves a potentially large literacy gap in the two countries. If and when reunification comes, my sense is that the lack of this knowledge will automatically relegate many Northerners to lower status positions in the new Korea. (Note: I am not saying here that no one in North Korea knows any hanji, but rather that that knowledge is increasingly restricted.) I wonder if this dictionary will include any hanji equivalents for hangul items. |
I'd like to see a newspaper that doesn't pull any punches like that. If there's a bit on an article on how Iran is doing something or other there should be a section with background on the event, maybe even with (gasp!) foreign letters, and whatever else. I hate when I read an article on some event and the only impression I can form from the scarce content provided is "man, Iran's f*&kin' craaazy!" Thank God for Wikipedia. |
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alkun
Joined: 25 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| I have a question. What is the big deal if there are two different forms of Korean? How many different forms of English do we have? There are English, American, Canadian, Australian, etc., dictionaries that have different meanings for some words. There are also countries that speak English but it is a different language (Philippines and Malaysia as examples) I couldn't understand from the article what country is leading this idea? South or North? One more question, are they going to include, I think it's East Timor, that uses Korean with the dictionary? |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Koreas: Divided by a common language |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Woland wrote: |
| The article doesn't raise what strikes me as the more interesting aspect of the linguistic divide - the use of hanji. With the North having officially eliminated use of hanji and not using them in the educational system, this leaves a potentially large literacy gap in the two countries. If and when reunification comes, my sense is that the lack of this knowledge will automatically relegate many Northerners to lower status positions in the new Korea. (Note: I am not saying here that no one in North Korea knows any hanji, but rather that that knowledge is increasingly restricted.) I wonder if this dictionary will include any hanji equivalents for hangul items. |
I'd like to see a newspaper that doesn't pull any punches like that. If there's a bit on an article on how Iran is doing something or other there should be a section with background on the event, maybe even with (gasp!) foreign letters, and whatever else. I hate when I read an article on some event and the only impression I can form from the scarce content provided is "man, Iran's f*&kin' craaazy!" Thank God for Wikipedia. |
I'm not disagreeing with you. I like having the background material, too. But most folks are not like us, and it isn't going to be profitable for any newspaper to do that. Wikipedia, as you say, can serve this function, in part because it is non-profit.
I'd rather have your views on the other part of my post. I suspect you have more information about the linguistic situation in the North than I do and it would be interesting to hear what you think about the hanji gap (if in fact one exists; I'm going off remembered info here). |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| I don't remember there being a hanja gap and N. Koreans have a lot of dealings with the Chinese especially with residents of Dandong for example being able to travel to Shinuiju sans visa and all the Joseonjok in China anyway that know tons of hanja. Here in the South they're learning more and more of them every day too. I think thanks to China the knowledge of hanja can't help but grow. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| I read that article today. The IHT is the only paper worth looking at, usually. It was interesting. I think language would just be one problem for North Koreans in the south, and not their biggest. The biggest would have to be the culture shock of coming out of that isolated regime. Imagine how freaky that is. Foreigners! Numerous TV channels! Things like that I imagine must be mind-boggling. |
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coolsage
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: The overcast afternoon of the soul
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Don't anticipate reunification in your lifetime. The Germans could pull it off because they're German; a history of literature, music, philosophy, divided artificially for fifty years, reuinited. The major disparity was an economic one, still being addressed, but the gap seems to be narrowing. Korea has never been a united country (unless you count the Japanese occupation), in fact has never evolved from warring tribal factions.' Five thousand years of history' is right up there with 'four seasons'. Yes, they've been here that long, but there never was one Korea, unless you believe the gullible hooey that every student is fed. Now I must retire for the evening,making certain that I take a spoonful of kimchi, which could possibly stave off any ensuing fan-death, because I intend to leave the fan on all night. The Norks don't even have fans to fear. That's a huge gap. |
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Mitch Comestein
Joined: 13 Jun 2006
Location: South
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| coolsage wrote: |
| Don't anticipate reunification in your lifetime. The Germans could pull it off because they're German; a history of literature, music, philosophy, divided artificially for fifty years, reuinited. |
The Germans also didn't have a "god" to worship like the North Koreans do. |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| coolsage wrote: |
| Don't anticipate reunification in your lifetime. The Germans could pull it off because they're German; a history of literature, music, philosophy, divided artificially for fifty years, reuinited. The major disparity was an economic one, still being addressed, but the gap seems to be narrowing. Korea has never been a united country (unless you count the Japanese occupation), in fact has never evolved from warring tribal factions.' Five thousand years of history' is right up there with 'four seasons'. Yes, they've been here that long, but there never was one Korea, unless you believe the gullible hooey that every student is fed. Now I must retire for the evening,making certain that I take a spoonful of kimchi, which could possibly stave off any ensuing fan-death, because I intend to leave the fan on all night. The Norks don't even have fans to fear. That's a huge gap. |
How do you define 'warring tribal factions' and why do you think Chosun was one of them? Can you quote any historian who supports your idea? If you disagree with that blanket five thousand years of history, how long would you say the Korean peninsula's history is? Bringing up 'four seasons' and 'fandeath' everywhere doesn't always ensure your success in making your argument about Korea look any better.  |
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Gwangjuboy
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Koreas: Divided by a common language |
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| Woland wrote: |
| The article doesn't raise what strikes me as the more interesting aspect of the linguistic divide - the use of hanji. With the North having officially eliminated use of hanji and not using them in the educational system, this leaves a potentially large literacy gap in the two countries. |
North Koreans still use the Chinese based 하다 verbs though. It's just that they write them in hangeul and not in Chinese letters. South Koreans usually write them in Hangeul anyway so I don't agree that there could be a large literacy gap in that respect. |
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