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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject: free rent |
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Over the last few years I've heard three Korean hagwon owners (my director, yesterday, was the third) express the desire to charge for rent, if they could, but no one else does, so they can't.
One day I think it'll be like Japan and elsewhere: they cover deposits, ESL teachers cover rent.
As long as Korean employers do it en masse, it will fly.
I don't think the demand for teachers will prevent a sea change of opinion, which I suspect will happen.
Job ads for graduates right out of Western universities will be 2.0-2.5 million won! but once you factor rent in, it'll be 1.4-1.9 take home pay for many positions.
Or maybe there's something fundamentally different here that will prevent it from one day being like Japan or Taiwan or any of several other ESL countries regarding rents.
Even though on a certain level I get it, I still have a hard time understanding how rent can be free. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: free rent |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
Over the last few years I've heard three Korean hagwon owners (my director, yesterday, was the third) express the desire to charge for rent, if they could, but no one else does, so they can't.
One day I think it'll be like Japan and elsewhere: they cover deposits, ESL teachers cover rent.
As long as Korean employers do it en masse, it will fly.
I don't think the demand for teachers will prevent a sea change of opinion, which I suspect will happen.
Job ads for graduates right out of Western universities will be 2.0-2.5 million won! but once you factor rent in, it'll be 1.4-1.9 take home pay for many positions.
Or maybe there's something fundamentally different here that will prevent it from one day being like Japan or Taiwan or any of several other ESL countries regarding rents.
Even though on a certain level I get it, I still have a hard time understanding how rent can be free. |
Hagwon (eikaiwa, buxiban) systems:
Korea - fricken corrupt. Always worried about pay and other stuff
Taiwan - somewhat corrupt, but much easier to find a good place
Japan - even the worse of the hagwons, Nova, you never have to worry about being paid late or crazy firings.
China - they still aren't use to us, but the big chains are no different that Taiwan and do tend to be honest. Contracts are still not totally understood there like Korea. Smaller operations and PUBLIC SCHOOLS can not be trusted without background checks. Not so much for lying, but for going bankrupt.
Visa:
Korea - your boss owns you
Taiwan - your boss owns you but you can quit legally and not worry about a letter of release
Japan - your visa is yours. Quit any time without a problem (legally)
China - easy to get. It is linked to your employer, but is easy to change
Language:
Korea - least useful of the languages
Japan - hell, you can read manga and speak a cool language (Japanese is more useful for trivia, movies, etc)
Taiwan - Mandarin. I don't need to say more
China - Mandarin.
Climate:
Korea - sandstorms, colder, not that bad though
Japan - more choice of climates, from Okinawa to Hokkaido
Taiwan - hot and sticky, but most people prefer it (don't know if I would though)
China - I can't even begin. Any kind you would like. The sandstorms in Korea come from Northern China (Gobi Desert). The south (Yunnan) province is awesome
People:
Korea - outwardly racist, even if they don't realize it. Easier to make friends due to this though, as you know where peopel stand.
Japan - Friendliest people on the planet, but will take you months to actually get to know someone and are probably the most racist deep down (not agressive or hateful though).
Taiwan - more like Korea.
China - almost everyone is extremely curious in a non-hostile way, but they will do things like rummage through your shopping cart on occasion  Very generous. Shanghai people aren't so friendly and you have to be more careful for ripoffs there. This isn't just my opinion, but many Chinese's opinion too
Money:
Korea - most now
Japan - least due to cost of living
Taiwan - in the middle, though close to Japan
China - Things are very cheap, but there is ~22% import tax on ALL foreign items. Live Chinese, you can save almost everything. 4000 is a little low, you won't save anything
Apartment:
Korea - free
Japan - betwee 40000 and 80000 a month. Fricken small. Utilities are not cheap.
Taiwan - *I don't know*
China - often foreigners are put in "Panda" housing, which is the nicest they have. 24 hour water is not guaranteed, nor is electricity in the country. Just ask about it. Probably the biggest apartments of all three
Culture (from a Western viewpoint):
Korea - a lot like Mainland China, +30 years of sophistication
Japan - extremely sophisticated
Taiwan - between the two
China - most interesting, as it is evolving at the moment. Have to figure out Guanxi. They think more like us though, like Taiwan (less collective)
I could go on, but if you took away the free flights (Japan and Taiwan tend to offer bonuses to make up for these) and the apartment, and made saving the same, even I would go to Japan or Taiwan (most likely Japan again) even though I honestly love Korea. If you can get a job in China for 12000+ RMB with housing and flights, you will save jsut as much as anywhere else.
Last edited by laogaiguk on Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Brilliantly accurate comparisons. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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The way I look at it NO teachers in Korea get free rent.
You work for it. It's just part of your pay diverted by your employer to pay for your rent.
In Japan I was paid 280,000 Yen. Every month 40,000 Yen was deducted from my pay for my rent. It was printed on the pay slip. The system is not much different from Korea. Except that the Japanese employers don't try to trick foreigners into thinking they are getting something for free. |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| eamo wrote: |
| In Japan I was paid 280,000 Yen. Every month 40,000 Yen was deducted from my pay for my rent. |
So you got paid 240,000 yen = 1.9 million won and that was a good Japanese pay and low Japanese rent!
Most advertised Japanese positions are in the 250000 yen range with 50000-60000 rent... making for cash in hand of 190000-200000 yen = 1.5 million won-1.6 million won.
| eamo wrote: |
| The way I look at it NO teachers in Korea get free rent. |
So let's add in that 40000 yen cheap rent you paid in Japan, that's an additional 330,000 Korean won per month.
Take a typical 2.0 million won job, by no means what a newbie can get these days, is the low end of what anyone with a degree without experience or ability can get, and add in the "rent"... 2.33 million won.... that's over $2,600 a month before rent... $34,500 a year (with negligible tax rates).
If anything, the free rent hides how much we make! The Japanese job ads are much more misleading.
Korean job ads would look better than those for Japan and some Middle East positions if total salary before rent was advertised. After all, a significant proportion of ESLers recruited from overseas are university grads with no experience and impressionable, with the allure of travel and income. |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Korea - a lot like Mainland China, +30 years of sophistication |
This part I don't agree, more like 2-5 years. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| rocklee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Korea - a lot like Mainland China, +30 years of sophistication |
This part I don't agree, more like 2-5 years. |
I don't know. Have you lived in Mainland China? I do find Korea is still behind the West (when taken from a Western perspective ofcourse) but in China they still have massive poverty everywhere, people honestly look at escalators like the devil just appeared infront of them, and computerization of anything is practically non-existant. There are other things, but while I like both, I don't agree with 2-5 years. Maybe my 30 was too high, but I believe yours is too low. |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Of course I have, otherwise I wouldn't have commented on it.
Your overestimation is quite funny having said that "you don't know".
Everything that I was able to get here I could get back in China, except :
- food and foreign food was better there
- could get any computer/electrical stuff without getting ripped off
- audio stuff there like speakers are centuries ahead of here
- cars were better there and china is advancing at an incredible rate with local brands
- they have shopping centres
- those guys have already cracked the Skype software, producing a similar VOIP program
I'm inclined to say that Korea would be on par with China, if slightly ahead because its demography and size is its greatest advantage.
Oh yeah to kick it off, most of the stuff here comes from China anyway  |
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poet13
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Location: Just over there....throwing lemons.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I should change my handle to "family guy" for this post.
So the most important question for me is....where can the most money be saved for someone who isn't a party animal? |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Korea for now. |
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eamo
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Location: Shepherd's Bush, 1964.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
| eamo wrote: |
| In Japan I was paid 280,000 Yen. Every month 40,000 Yen was deducted from my pay for my rent. |
So you got paid 240,000 yen = 1.9 million won and that was a good Japanese pay and low Japanese rent!
Most advertised Japanese positions are in the 250000 yen range with 50000-60000 rent... making for cash in hand of 190000-200000 yen = 1.5 million won-1.6 million won.
| eamo wrote: |
| The way I look at it NO teachers in Korea get free rent. |
So let's add in that 40000 yen cheap rent you paid in Japan, that's an additional 330,000 Korean won per month.
Take a typical 2.0 million won job, by no means what a newbie can get these days, is the low end of what anyone with a degree without experience or ability can get, and add in the "rent"... 2.33 million won.... that's over $2,600 a month before rent... $34,500 a year (with negligible tax rates).
If anything, the free rent hides how much we make! The Japanese job ads are much more misleading.
Korean job ads would look better than those for Japan and some Middle East positions if total salary before rent was advertised. After all, a significant proportion of ESLers recruited from overseas are university grads with no experience and impressionable, with the allure of travel and income. |
I hear you but I still don't see how you can call it 'free' rent. If somebody you didn't work for paid your rent out of the goodness of their heart, then yes, it would be 'free' rent. But that's not the case here.
I don't get free rent in Korea. I get a housing allowance on top of my pay. If my boss didn't pay that then he would have to pay me a higher rate of pay. Either way, he's only paying it because I work for him 5 days per week. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| rocklee wrote: |
Of course I have, otherwise I wouldn't have commented on it.
Your overestimation is quite funny having said that "you don't know".
Everything that I was able to get here I could get back in China, except :
- food and foreign food was better there
- could get any computer/electrical stuff without getting ripped off
- audio stuff there like speakers are centuries ahead of here
- cars were better there and china is advancing at an incredible rate with local brands
- they have shopping centres
- those guys have already cracked the Skype software, producing a similar VOIP program
I'm inclined to say that Korea would be on par with China, if slightly ahead because its demography and size is its greatest advantage.
Oh yeah to kick it off, most of the stuff here comes from China anyway |
The "I don't know" meant about your comment, not about my lack of information I don't think the ability to get things is the end all of sophistication though. They are much more superstitious. Have even less ability to use new technology (a lot of people actually can't use the text messaging of their phones because it's too hard, and also some don't know pinyin), and lots of other things. Comparing Mainland China to Korea as being almost similiar is just wrong. Korea is more advanced sophistication wise when compared from a Western perspective. This includes lining up (for those who think Korea is bad, see there), airplane manners (again, you think Korea is bad, check out there). They do not bring chickens on to buses in Korea. I could go on and on. Korea is not on par with Mainland China development wise (though they are catching up and might outtake Korea as I find Korea seems to have slowed a bit). I am curious how you think so?
Again, this is all from a Western perspective, and that is how I am judging them. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I would like to know why hakwons don't supply free lunches like just nearly every other company in Korea. The employer provided lunch is an institution and custom that we don't take part in. Lunch usually costs me 3-4000 won per day. That is 70.000 won p/mnth. Add that to my pay packet, thanks. |
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rocklee
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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I see renting here similar to China and Japan, cheaper than you think and only fluctuates when foreigners enter.
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| I would like to know why hakwons don't supply free lunches like just nearly every other company in Korea. |
Now that is a surprise. Well, maybe because we're ignorant foreigners. I am very curious about lunch in public schools and how they compare with what I had in China and Japan.
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The "I don't know" meant about your comment, not about my lack of information Wink I don't think the ability to get things is the end all of sophistication though.
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I see. You do know China is a huge country with 20 odd other nations living there with their own dialect and customs?
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They are much more superstitious. Have even less ability to use new technology (a lot of people actually can't use the text messaging of their phones because it's too hard, and also some don't know pinyin), and lots of other things.
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Whaa??? You really haven't lived there have you?
In what ways are they more superstitious? Korea has a million and one christian variations plus the odd jewish outfits.
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Comparing Mainland China to Korea as being almost similiar is just wrong. Korea is more advanced sophistication wise when compared from a Western perspective.
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I see your problem, you are not using the western perspective, you are using the country vs urban perspective.
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This includes lining up (for those who think Korea is bad, see there), airplane manners (again, you think Korea is bad, check out there).
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Korea is just as bad as China for lining up. I've shopped at Mcdonalds, KFC, Darunfa (chain supermarkets) and everyone lines up.
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They do not bring chickens on to buses in Korea.
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I have never ever seen even an animal on a public bus in China, and this was 2 hours from the nearest east coast, so quite "inaka" as you always seem to put it when describing it.
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I could go on and on.
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Please do.
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Korea is not on par with Mainland China development wise (though they are catching up and might outtake Korea as I find Korea seems to have slowed a bit). I am curious how you think so?
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My question is how do you think not?
I lived there and travelled from west to east, have you?
And from a western perspective, both countries are backwaters compared to the UK. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| rocklee wrote: |
I see renting here similar to China and Japan, cheaper than you think and only fluctuates when foreigners enter.
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The "I don't know" meant about your comment, not about my lack of information Wink I don't think the ability to get things is the end all of sophistication though.
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I see. You do know China is a huge country with 20 odd other nations living there with their own dialect and customs?
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One, I don't know why you are so aggressive on this. You must like China a lot, have a beef against Korea, or not like me. I don't care though. As for the dialects and customs, most are in the southern Yunnan province and way out East. They don't count as 95% is Han Chinese. When I talk about China, I am talking about the Han population.
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They are much more superstitious. Have even less ability to use new technology (a lot of people actually can't use the text messaging of their phones because it's too hard, and also some don't know pinyin), and lots of other things.
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Whaa??? You really haven't lived there have you?
In what ways are they more superstitious? Korea has a million and one christian variations plus the odd jewish outfits.
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I must say it's you who haven't lived there. Or lived like the normal foreigner with very little interaction. I did not. I had very few foriegn friends, but since I am great with languages, maybe my Chinese gave me a chance you didn't have to see the real China.
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Comparing Mainland China to Korea as being almost similiar is just wrong. Korea is more advanced sophistication wise when compared from a Western perspective.
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I see your problem, you are not using the western perspective, you are using the country vs urban perspective.
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No, I went to Shanghai all the time, and visited XiAn, Guangzhou and Beijing. When I have to show people how to use the escalator, I tend to make these opinions.
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This includes lining up (for those who think Korea is bad, see there), airplane manners (again, you think Korea is bad, check out there).
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Korea is just as bad as China for lining up. I've shopped at Mcdonalds, KFC, Darunfa (chain supermarkets) and everyone lines up.
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No, you are wrong. Very wrong and I have been all over China (literally). Bus stations, train stations, McDonalds especially have no line ups. There are exceptions, but more often than not there are no lineups but low key chaos.
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They do not bring chickens on to buses in Korea.
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I have never ever seen even an animal on a public bus in China, and this was 2 hours from the nearest east coast, so quite "inaka" as you always seem to put it when describing it.
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Because you haven't seen it does not mean it doesn't happen. I saw it in Shanghai! And out in the country, it's massive. Not to mention intranational airplane manners.
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I could go on and on.
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Please do.
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Traffic rules. It's ordered chaos.
Law and order, almost never enforced.
GUANXI (more than anything we know of)
No centralized train or bus system
Cash based society
Holidays. Nobody knows their holdiays for that year until the government tells them
Taxis use cell phones and don't have a centralized office
bike rules (even though they have been one of the smartest countries I have ever seen by making specialized bike paths along most new streets)
public bathrooms
poverty
water (kaishui please)
unsanitary animal treatment (much more than here, look at the bird flu)
city by city languages/dialects
foreigner rights (can't go far in a car)
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Korea is not on par with Mainland China development wise (though they are catching up and might outtake Korea as I find Korea seems to have slowed a bit). I am curious how you think so?
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My question is how do you think not?
I lived there and travelled from west to east, have you?
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These are not arguments. But, to answer your loaded question, West to East, North to South. I particularily loved the South, especially XiShuangBanNa. I would die to live with a half decent job in Jinghong. Unfortunately, I couldn't go any farther West than XiAn due to time constraints. But the more western provinces don't really factor into our discussion, being mostly muslim and dirt poor, if not autonomous regions. Been up North and around Dalian, Inner Mongolia and Beijing ofcourse. I'd love to go to Mongolia sometime. And I lived in the middle, so have been to SuZhou, Hangzhou, YiXing, Nanjing, ofcourse Shanghai, and areas around all of those. Does this help you at all? I had a nice uni job with lots of vacation.
I was friends with a couple police men, and you would be surprised how easily they talk about their jobs. Many of my other friends were the farmers around my apartment. I am not making this up. They were great because they couldn't speak any English at all, it was great. And their hospitality, considering they made maybe 800 kuai a month was surprising. I gave my DVD player to one when I left (only a 500 kuai one) and he nearly died with the XieXie's.
I also made some friends at Starbucks. They were ofcourse richer than I will ever be, but they were great. Not the snobby rich one would have thought they would be. I guess they became rich through hard work, and that must have made the difference.
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And from a western perspective, both countries are backwaters compared to the UK. |
Where in the hell did I say that wasn't true. I am not comparing them to the West, I am comparing Korea to China from a Western perspective.
Finally, my first post with the comparisons is pretty much spot on for anyone who is thinking between the two. There are exceptions to all generalizations, hence the word generalization. But still... |
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