Korean Job Discussion Forums

[nasigoreng]

[Interested]

Yawn. Aren't there more serious issues to concern yourself with? War attrocities, black market body parts, global warming...

In fact forced conversion is not lawful according to traditional Islamic doctrine.

[Yo!Chingo]

I was wondering the same things myself nasigoreng. These men are now "converts" to Islam against their wills. If I were them I would make the biggest spectacle out of my Christian, or whatever they were b/f, reconversion and make damn sure that Fox News covered it.

Let their former captors eat it!

[nasigoreng]

[khyber]

[Junior]

[Leslie Cheswyck]

[happeningthang]

[Rteacher]

The Koran has serious contradictions (as do the New and Old Testaments - the other scriptures aimed at elevating meat-eaters to at least a human platform...) The following is an essay written by a former Muslim who is now into Krishna Consciousness (a nonsectarian, post-graduate level study of all religion...)




The Directions of Mohammed with Regard to the Unbelievers

By: Bhakta Abdula

Aug 27, USA (SUN) � Of course an Unbeliever is anyone who doesn't worship Allah and his prophet.


"Allah was not just satisfied with killing the unbelievers. He enjoyed torturing them before killing them..." Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!" 22:19-22


"Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed." 4:48


Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah 3:28


"slay them wherever ye catch them". (Q.2:191)


In the verse 8:65, Allah tells his prophet:


"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish


two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers."


In the verse 8:65, Allah tells his prophet:


"O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish


two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers."


These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a


garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water. With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as


well as (their) skins. In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them. Every time they wish to get away therefrom,


from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!" 22:19-22


Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q.2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly


(Q.9:123), fight with them, (Q.8:65) humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax if they are Christians or Jews, (Q.9:29)


and slay them if they are Pagans (Q.9:5). The Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tells clearly that


no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q.3:85). That Allah would relegate those who disbelieve in the Quran to Hell


(Q.5:11) and calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q.9:2. I was shocked to learn that Allah orders the Muslims to


fight the unbelievers until no other religion is left other than Islam (Q.2 :193), or that he says that the non-believers


will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q.14:17), and asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and the feet


of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace. And as if this were not enough, that "they shall have


a great punishment in world hereafter" (Q.5:34).


"As for the disbelievers, for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water


whereby whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods" (Q.22:9).


The Quran also prohibits Muslims to befriend their own fathers or brothers if they are not believers (Q.9:23), (Q.3:2 and


that actually Muhammad encouraged his followers to kill their own family in the battles of Badr and Uhud and asks the Muslims


to "strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q.25:52), and be stern with them because they belong to hell


(Q.66:9).


the Quran saying: "strike off the heads of the disbelievers" then after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie


up the remaining captives" (Q.47:4).


The book of Allah says that women are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to beat them (Q.4:34), and that women


will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q.66:10). It says that men have an advantage over the women


(Q.2:228). It not only denies women equal right to their inheritance (Q.4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and


decrees that their testimony alone is not admissible in the court (Q.2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot


accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness, which of course is a joke. Rapist don't rape in the presence of


witnesses. But the most shocking verse was where Allah allows Muslims to rape the women captured in wars even if they are


married before being captured, (Q.4:24) (Q.4:3).


This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and rape their women. Pakistani soldiers raped


up to 250,000 Bangali women in 1971 and massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that


Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women and then kill them after


calling them apostates and the enemies of Allah.
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-06/editorials621.htm

There's a rebuttal offered by another Muslim follower of Krishna consciousness pointing out some errors in the above, but I don't think he fully negates all the points made...

[Rteacher]

Alright, here's the first reply to the above guy's interpretation of the Koran:
Reply to Bhakta Abdula
By: Bhakta Zamael

Aug 30, SWEDEN (SUN) � [The writer is translating from a Swedish Quran to English.]

As a friend of all faiths, and a follower of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism and Sufi and Gnostic mysticism (Muslim mysticism, the true devotional path in Islam) I must say unto you dear prabhu, you are wrong about Islam, and the quotes you have taken are out of context. You must take the first verse before and the verse after to understand the middle of the sura (chapter) in the Quran. As with the Holy Gita, one must read the Holy Quran with a true believer to get guidance, etc. Also one must know what Islam means. Islam means submission to God's will. Isn't it the same in Vaisnavaism? To serve God with love? The same is true with Islam. The Arabic word Islam is derived from the Arabic word "Al-Salaam" which means peace.
You wrote:


Of course an Unbeliever is anyone who doesn't worship Allah and his prophet.

Allah means God, The Only One, and Sufis accept God in ALL religion, so this isn't true.

You wrote:
"Allah was not just satisfied with killing the unbelievers. He enjoyed torturing them before killing them..." Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!" 22:19-22

There are no chapters like this you have set out, the only truth in this chapter you have taken is the last about tasting the fire 22:19:22 "try on the punishment of the Fire (Hell)"


You wrote:

"Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed." 4:48


In this Sura, Allah says that to put an equal person with God, or that God needs an equal of any kind is the gravest sin. ALL other sin He may forgive, so this is true.
You wrote:


Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah 3:28


[b][color=darkblue]The sura 3:28 says: "The Believers shall not take deniers of Truth rather then his Godbrothers unto his allies (the same is in Vaisnavaism, when one should only have sadhu-sanga, the same says the Quran here). One who does this cuts his bond to God -- if not your purpose is to protect yourself against menace. But God requests unto you that you do not take gentle unto His warning, God is the goal for your journey."


This is the FULL verse from the Quran


You wrote: [/color][/b]

"slay them wherever ye catch them". (Q.2:191)


This verse is taken out of content, because in the verse before and after is the most important part, which you have missed. This verse says:


2:190-192: "Fight for the cause of God against those whom make war unto you, but DON'T be the first whom take up arms/weapons; God indeed don't love those who attack. And kill them wherever you may encounter them and drive out them from the places where they have expelled you; yes, oppression is far worse then death. Do not fight them at the vicinity of the holy mosque, if they don't take up the fight there, but if they fight you there, kill them. That is the payment for the deniers. But if they put down there arms/weapons, they shall see that God is most forgiving, compassionate."


So it is clear that if one don't attack theyn't first, and if one attacks but gives up, they will be forgiven!

You wrote:

Quran tells Muslims to kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q.2:191), to murder them and treat them harshly

This isn't true, it is about how to treat attackers in war. Read from verse 2:190-192

You wrote:


(Q.8:65) humiliate them and impose on them a penalty tax if they are Christians or Jews,


No where can that reference about taxes be found in 8:65


You wrote:

(Q.9:29) and slay them if they are Pagans


No where can that reference about killing pagans be found in 9:29 You wrote:

(Q.9:5). The Quran takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and tells clearly that


No where can be found about take away someone's freedom, but in 9:6 it says: "If a idolizer seeks shelter among you, then give him your protection, so he may hear about the word of God; then take him to a safe place where he may be safe. They are people that doesn't know what Islam is."


You wrote:


no other religion except Islam is accepted (Q.3:85).


3:85 says: "If someone wants to take a religion that doesn't mean submission under Gods will this will be refused to him, and in the next life he will stand among the losers."
You wrote:


That Allah would relegate those who disbelieve in the Quran to Hell (Q.5:11)

No where can be found a reference about disbelievers of Quran in this verse

You wrote:


and calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (Q.9:2

In 9:28 it says: "BELIEVERS! They whom put assistant at Gods sides is impure!


You wrote:


I was shocked to learn that Allah orders the Muslims to fight the unbelievers until no other religion is left other than Islam (Q.2 :193)


Again, this is not true. 2:193 says: "And fight against them until all oppression has stopped and all worship can be sent to God. If they stop fighting all hostility shall stop apart from those unjust whom wants to fight more."

You wrote:


or that he says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (Q.14:17)


No where can reference be found about disbelievers will drink boiling water in this verse


You wrote:


and asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and the feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace. And as if this were not enough, that "they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter" (Q.5:34).


In reality this verse 5:33-34 says: "The recompense of those who make war against Allah and His Messenger and spread corruption in earth is that they are to be killed or crucified, or have their hand and a foot cut off on opposite sides, or be expelled from the land. For them is shame in this world and a great punishment in the Everlasting Life; except those who repent before you have power over them. For you must know that Allah is Forgiving, the Most Merciful."

Aqa Mahdi Puya says: "Waging war against Allah and His prophet means hostility against His chosen representatives; or deviation from His laws by overstepping the boundaries laid down by Him; or letting loose a reign of terror to persecute and frighten innocent people in order to deprive them of their rights; or attempts to undermine the cause of Islam and the overall interests of the Muslims; or activities to enslave, exploit and destroy human beings."
You wrote:


(Q.3:2 and that actually Muhammad encouraged his followers to kill their own family in the battles of Badr and Uhud

Nowhere can this be found in 3:28


You wrote:


and asks the Muslims to "strive against the unbelievers with great endeavor (Q.25:52)

The 25:52 says: "Therefore listen not to the Unbelievers, but strive against them with the utmost strenuousness, with the Quran."


You wrote:


66:9: "O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge (indeed)."
You wrote: [color=darkblue][b][color=darkred]and be stern with them because they belong to hell (Q.66:9).
the Quran saying: "strike off the heads of the disbelievers" then after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Q.47:4).


47:4 says: "Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah - He will never let their deeds be lost."

You wrote:


The book of Allah says that women are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to beat them (Q.4:34)


4:34 says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).


You wrote:


and that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (Q.66:10).


Actually, this verse says: "Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!"
You wrote:

It says that men have an advantage over the women (Q.2:228).


Yes it says that men have a slightly advantage, but if one reads the full verse and the verse before it says in 2227-229:

"But if their intention is firm for divorce, Allah heareth and knoweth all things. Divorced women shall wait concerning themselves for three monthly periods. Nor is it lawful for them to hide what Allah Hath created in their wombs, if they have faith in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands have the better right to take them back in that period, if they wish for reconciliation. And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree (of advantage) over them. And Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. A divorce is only permissible twice: after that, the parties should either hold Together on equitable terms, or separate with kindness. It is not lawful for you, (Men), to take back any of your gifts (from your wives), except when both parties fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah. If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by Allah, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. These are the limits ordained by Allah; so do not transgress them if any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong (Themselves as well as others)."


You wrote:


It not only denies women equal right to their inheritance (Q.4:11-12)

Exactly it says: "Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise. In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing. You wrote: [/color]

it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their testimony alone is not admissible in the court (Q.2:282).

The full verse says: "O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah; For it is Good that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things. If ye are on a journey, and cannot find a scribe, a pledge with possession (may serve the purpose). And if one of you deposits a thing on trust with another, let the trustee (faithfully) discharge his trust, and let him Fear his Lord conceal not evidence; for whoever conceals it, - his heart is tainted with sin. And Allah knoweth all that ye do.

You wrote:


But the most shocking verse was where Allah allows Muslims to rape the women captured in wars even if they are married before being captured, (Q.4:24)

In reality 4:24 says, and is about marrige: "Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess: Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you: Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property - desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.


No verses can be found about raping women or such things, also Muhammed Himself had said in the Hadiths, that paradise lieS under the feet of the women...


So I'm sorry dear prabhu, I do not know or understand what you are trying to do. If you don't like Islam, that is one thing, but to make up lies about Islam, and make up bogus verses from Islam, that's just unnecessary, I have checked ALL your verses with a bona fide Quran and you are, I'm sorry, very wrong. Islam is a peace loving religion and a path of devotion, and one must understand that if a Muslim attacks first or threatens innocent women and children, they aren't real Muslim, they are only hiding under the banner of Islam, like many other people who mistreat the Name of God and religion.

[Leslie Cheswyck]

[Summer Wine]

[khyber]

LC...what do "forced conversions" have to do with "civilian deaths":
That one has to wonder if there is a certain number of people to convert/die for there to be a problem.

[Interested]

[Summer Wine]