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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:57 am Post subject: Pope asks bishops to lobby our MPs |
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Pope asks bishops to lobby our MPs
Ontario prelates given message by Benedict at audience in Rome
Canada `has had to endure the folly of redefinition of spouse'
Sep. 9, 2006. 01:00 AM
STUART LAIDLAW
FAITH AND ETHICS REPORTER
Pope Benedict XVI yesterday lectured Ontario bishops on a pilgrimage to Rome about gay marriage and abortion laws in this country, lamenting "the exclusion of God from the public sphere" and calling on the bishops to use their influence on Catholic politicians.
"In the name of tolerance, your country has had to endure the folly of the redefinition of spouse and, in the name of `freedom of choice,' it is confronted with the daily destruction of unborn children," he said.
The Pope said Canada's "well-earned reputation for a generous and practical commitment to justice and peace" has led to a "false dichotomy" in which rights have been extended too far.
"Catholic involvement in political life cannot compromise on this principle," he told the bishops before leaving on a trip to his native Germany.
" (In) your discussions with politicians and civic leaders I encourage you to demonstrate that our Christian faith, far from being an impediment to dialogue, is a bridge."
Bishop Richard Smith, who is leading the bishops on their visit to Rome, last month delivered a similar message, saying "a terrible mistake was made" last year when the Canadian government changed the definition of marriage to include homosexual relationships.
Smith told a gathering of the Catholic Women's League that a planned fall vote on whether to scrap that law presents "a rare second chance" to revisit the issue. He could not be reached for comment yesterday.
The Pope's intervention could add fuel to the debate in Canada over gay marriage, which the ruling Conservatives oppose.
Already, Catholic MPs, including former prime minister Paul Martin, have been admonished by the church for supporting gay marriage. This weekend, in a move largely spawned by the church rebuke of Catholic MPs, the New Democratic Party will debate setting up a faith caucus.
The Pope's lecture to Ontario bishops is the third such appeal to Canadian clergy in recent months. He delivered similar messages to Atlantic Canadian and Quebec bishops in May and is to meet western Canadian bishops next month.
With each meeting, his comments have become more pointed. The Ontario meeting is the first in which he called on bishops to use their influence with politicians by urging them to consider religious values when making decisions, not just public opinion polls and social trends.
`Catholic involvement in political life cannot compromise on this ...'
Pope Benedict XVI
"Democracy succeeds only to the extent that it is based on truth and a correct understanding of the human person," he said. "Catholic involvement in political life cannot compromise on this principle."
The Pope also commended Ontario's Catholic schools for helping to evangelize the province's children in the face of an "insidious" relativism in today's schools.
Donna Marie Kennedy, president of the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association, says students in the separate school system are taught Catholic values as part of the curriculum, but are not graded on their level of adherence to papal edicts.
"How can I judge someone else's faith journey?" she asked. "That's a personal relationship."
As a publicly funded system, she said, the schools also teach the same curriculum as public schools.
The Toronto Catholic school board was not available for comment.
A Ministry of Education statement noted "the government may not interfere with the denominational aspects" of Catholic schools.
Benedict also returned to a theme he stressed with the other Canadian bishops, calling for greater "evangelism" in the church to make religion a bigger part of everyday life in Canada and the culture of the country.
Catholic schools, in his view, were key to this effort.
"Within the context of the evangelization of culture, I wish to mention the fine network of Catholic schools at the heart of ecclesial life in your province," he said. "I thank and encourage those many lay men and women ... who strive to ensure that your young people become daily more appreciative of the gift of faith."
Kennedy said she doubted the Pope's comments would lead teachers to infuse more theology into their lessons.
"As a teacher, I don't dispense theological advice." |
Pope asks bishops to lobby our MPs
Two discussions here (the other being gay marriage), but I would like to focus more on why Canada is publically supporting Catholic schools? |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| I say if God wants to be involved in the public sphere, he better start existing, and fast. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 1:40 am Post subject: |
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A church that has been involved in the torture and murder of innocent victims from the 12th to the 19th century (Spanish inquisition) abetted in the sexual abuse of children by covering for the perpetrators, and contributed to the deaths of who know how many in Africa by resisting the use of condoms and yet still feels it can dictate to others on issues of morality.
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:05 am Post subject: Re: Pope asks bishops to lobby our MPs |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Two discussions here (the other being gay marriage), but I would like to focus more on why Canada is publically supporting Catholic schools? |
Education is a provincial issue, and this is specifically related to Ontario, not all of Canada. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 3:22 am Post subject: Re: Pope asks bishops to lobby our MPs |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Two discussions here (the other being gay marriage), but I would like to focus more on why Canada is publically supporting Catholic schools? |
Education is a provincial issue, and this is specifically related to Ontario, not all of Canada. |
| Quote: |
Private religious schools
Each province deals differently with private religious schools. In Ontario the Catholic system continues to be fully publicly funded, but other faiths receive no such funding. Ontario has several private Jewish, Muslim, and Christian schools, but all are funded through tuition fees. Since the Catholic schools system is entrenched in the constitution, the Supreme Court has ruled that this system is not unconstitutional. However, the United Nations has ruled that Ontario's system is unfair. In 2002 the government of Mike Harris introduced a controversial program to partially fund all private schools, but this was criticized for undermining the public education system and the program was eliminated after the Liberals won the 2003 provincial election.
In other provinces privately operated religious schools are funded. In British Columbia the government today pays 50% of the cost of religious schools that meet rigorous provincial standards. The province today has a number of Sikh, Hindu, Christian and Muslim schools. Alberta also has a network of charter schools, which are private or religious schools within the public school system. These schools have to follow the provincial curriculum and meet all standards, but are given considerable freedom in other areas. In all other provinces private religious schools receive some funding, but not as much as the public system. |
Again, let me repeat the question a little more detailed for some.
Why is Canada allowing Ontario to get away with full funding by not doing something about it and why are most of the provinces (I believe except Quebec and Newfoundland) still funding religious schools at all? |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Pope asks bishops to lobby our MPs |
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The reason Canada allows them to get away with it is the same reason it allows New Brunswick to skirt around the issue of not adequately providing publicly funded abortions. They are provincial matters and this is the nature of the way Canada was set up.
There is no consistency across the country where curriculum is concerned. Even in New Brunswick, because of the two completely separate systems (English and French) there is no consistency between what is taught from one school to the neighbouring school. (side note -- the English system have religious schools, but I'm not sure about the French system. My experience twenty years ago was that it was pretty Catholic but I don't know how official that was (I was 6). Though my boyfriend's English school was quite Baptist, unofficially, but very heavy handedly Baptist nonetheless.)
You won't get any argument from me that it is wrong to publicly fund religious education. Religion is something parents, and later individuals, choose (assuming they are provided with the critical thinking skills necessary to actually make a choice rather than blindly follow what they are told is right). If parents want more religious education than what they feel capable of providing then they can pay for it, but I shouldn't have to. There is a reason there is separation between church and state, and the USA is a perfect example of how that ideal is going out the window.
There was an interesting article awhile ago in the Guardian (I think, but I can't find it, sorry, I'll keep looking though) about how parents are pretending to be religious to get their kids into specific public religious schools because they provide a better education. How confusing is that for a kid?
edit: typos |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Pope asks bishops to lobby our MPs |
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| Novernae wrote: |
The reason Canada allows them to get away with it is the same reason it allows New Brunswick to skirt around the issue of not adequately providing publicly funded abortions. They are provincial matters and this is the nature of the way Canada was set up.
There is no consistency across the country where curriculum is concerned. Even in New Brunswick, because of the two completely separate systems (English and French) there is no consistency between what is taught from one school to the neighbouring school. (side note -- the English system have religious schools, but I'm not sure about the French system. My experience twenty years ago was that it was pretty Catholic but I don't know how official that was (I was 6). Though my boyfriend's English school was quite Baptist, unofficially, but very heavy handedly Baptist nonetheless.)
You won't get any argument from me that it is wrong to publicly fund religious education. Religion is something parents, and later individuals, choose (assuming they are provided with the critical thinking skills necessary to actually make a choice rather than blindly follow what they are told is right). If parents want more religious education than what they feel capable of providing then they can pay for it, but I shouldn't have to. There is a reason there is separation between church and state, and the USA is a perfect example of how that ideal is going out the window.
There was an interesting article awhile ago in the Guardian (I think, but I can't find it, sorry, I'll keep looking though) about how parents are pretending to be religious to get their kids into specific public religious schools because they provide a better education. How confusing is that for a kid?
edit: typos |
The French and English thing is annoying enough. Moncton is finally building (or has built, not sure) a new French highschool. I can't believe my parents and friends are paying for children to be brought up in Catholic schools. It's appalling and has to be changed. I know it would be a pain, but changing the Charter and getting the "Catholic" bits out of it would help (or if the religious people would like, add in every other major religion in Canada). Because of it, the Supreme Court can't do anything  |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| I say if God wants to be involved in the public sphere, he better start existing, and fast. |
Nicely put... mind if I use that?
No one seems to be biting on the public catholic school thing. I think it would make a good discussion but I would bet that most people are in favour of separation of church and state, so it's kind of a one sided discussion.
As for the different systems in Canada, I was personally quite messed up by it. I started in the immersion system in NS in grade primary, which is like kidergarden, but not. Then moved to the NB French system for grades 1 and 2, where there was no primary or kindergarden and the starting date was earlier so I was older than all of my peers and from then on was to face a barrage of 'did you fail?' questions every year. Then I moved again and wasn't accepted into the French school in my new city because my parents didn't speak French and they were told under no uncertain terms that if anything happened to me (ie broken leg on the playground or some other accident) that they would be informed if the incident in French and no effort would be made to ensure they understood even though everyone at the school spoke French) so then I had to go to the core English program since in New Brunswick that year they had decided to get rid of early immersions and move it to middle immersion (thanks to all the lobbying of the stupid misinformed parents who still think that learning French will ruin their child's English). In all their wonderful wisdom they taught cursive in grade three in the English system and grade two in the French system and despite requests on my part and on the part of my parents I was not allowed to skip that part of the class and spend the time learning new things because we were told English writing might be different so they might have "taught me wrong"  . Then the next year I moved into the middle immersion program and got to start French all over again despite speaking it fluently thanks to 3 years of schooling in it.... So in the first 5 years of my schooling I was able to sample 3 different school boards and 4 different programs... what a waste of time. Not to mention that once I got to junior high they had to dumb everything down for those comming from the other schools, which happened again in high school... lowest common denominator So there were a total of 5 years of my schooling that were complete repetitions of the years before because the schools couldn't be bothered to follow any consistent standards even within the same city!
Maybe we could just complain about the state of education today... though I'm sure that's been done a few times. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| RACETRAITOR wrote: |
| I say if God wants to be involved in the public sphere, he better start existing, and fast. |
And paying his backtaxes. Who the hell gets off demanding this kind of thing whilst enjoying a tax-free holiday from the state for the last 2 millenia? |
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Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Bold words from a man who was once a member of the Hitler Youth! |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
A church that has been involved in the torture and murder of innocent victims from the 12th to the 19th century (Spanish inquisition) abetted in the sexual abuse of children by covering for the perpetrators, and contributed to the deaths of who know how many in Africa by resisting the use of condoms and yet still feels it can dictate to others on issues of morality.
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Not to mention hiding an unprecedented amount of invaluable and unique historical documents/texts deemed "heretical" in its libraries that NO ONE was/is allowed to see.
*beep* 'em. |
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ThePoet
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: No longer in Korea - just lurking here
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: |
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The reason there is both a publicly funded school system and a publicly funded separate school system (and ,no it's not just in Ontario, most provinces have this) is because way back when the country was starting, several debates were waged and the final concensus was, if you are paying taxes, and your tax dollars go to schools and you are catholic, you had better have the option of sending your school tax money to a catholic school.
If you pay property taxes, your assessment comes with a box to tick off stating whether you want the school portion to go to public or separate school boards (and in some areas, the public school board is the catholic school system, and the separate school board is the non-denominational, depending on who was in the majority when the area incorporated). When you tick the box, that is where the money goes....each school board then has those dollars apportioned to it for its budget.
Actually, as far as democracy goes, it is one of the few things in Canada that people have the ability to make a difference on and make a decision about every year.
Poet |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| The Roman Catholic priesthood is g ay |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ThePoet wrote: |
Actually, as far as democracy goes, it is one of the few things in Canada that people have the ability to make a difference on and make a decision about every year.
Poet |
And what happens if one was ever out of balance? Funds would come from somewhere else, I have little doubt about that. In the current state, the government would not allow either of them to be lacking in funds. There really is no making a difference.
Not to ThePoet,
all funds should be going to the public schools. The Catholics want to raise their children in ignorance, fine, pay for it. Also, there are obviously a lot of Catholic teachers in the public school system (the kind who keep religion personal), but I wonder how many non-Catholic, or God help them, Athiestic teachers are in the Catholic system  |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Pope asks bishops to lobby our MPs |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
The reason Canada allows them to get away with it is the same reason it allows New Brunswick to skirt around the issue of not adequately providing publicly funded abortions. They are provincial matters and this is the nature of the way Canada was set up.
There is no consistency across the country where curriculum is concerned. Even in New Brunswick, because of the two completely separate systems (English and French) there is no consistency between what is taught from one school to the neighbouring school. (side note -- the English system have religious schools, but I'm not sure about the French system. My experience twenty years ago was that it was pretty Catholic but I don't know how official that was (I was 6). Though my boyfriend's English school was quite Baptist, unofficially, but very heavy handedly Baptist nonetheless.)
You won't get any argument from me that it is wrong to publicly fund religious education. Religion is something parents, and later individuals, choose (assuming they are provided with the critical thinking skills necessary to actually make a choice rather than blindly follow what they are told is right). If parents want more religious education than what they feel capable of providing then they can pay for it, but I shouldn't have to. There is a reason there is separation between church and state, and the USA is a perfect example of how that ideal is going out the window.
There was an interesting article awhile ago in the Guardian (I think, but I can't find it, sorry, I'll keep looking though) about how parents are pretending to be religious to get their kids into specific public religious schools because they provide a better education. How confusing is that for a kid?
edit: typos |
The French and English thing is annoying enough. Moncton is finally building (or has built, not sure) a new French highschool. I can't believe my parents and friends are paying for children to be brought up in Catholic schools. It's appalling and has to be changed. I know it would be a pain, but changing the Charter and getting the "Catholic" bits out of it would help (or if the religious people would like, add in every other major religion in Canada). Because of it, the Supreme Court can't do anything |
What's even more annoying is how some anglophones residents of Moncton lobbied the government for a university simply because the French had the U de M. As a result, the Atlantic Baptist College (a bible school) became a university. Problem is, there were already two excellent English language universities near Moncton: UNB in Fredericton and St John and Mount Allison in Sackville.
As for French language schools being catholic, that came to an end more than 20 years ago when teachers began refusing to teach bible classes. Two of my father's friends, local representatives of the teachers's union, were the one's responsible for getting that ball rolling.
Last edited by Hollywoodaction on Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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