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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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 Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: phone numbers |
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I am (was, still am???) a programmer, with a bachelor of computer science.
Having said that, Korean phone numbers drive me up the wall.
999) 746-1928
Why not have the first bracket. AHHHHHH! Why only the one? I guess it still works as we understand, but AHHHH! I guess my mind is too much like a compiler.
I also tend to put the punctuation outside of the quotation marks of a quotation. For example, "My job rocks". <----- That is grammatically incorrect, but a compiler (or my trained brain) wouldn't (doesn't) like it.
By the way, I got assauted by 5 Koreans and Jessica Alba last night in Itaewon! |
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Return Jones
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Location: I will see you in far-off places
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: |
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What's all this Alba stuff going around?  |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I also tend to put the punctuation outside of the quotation marks of a quotation. For example, "My job rocks". <----- That is grammatically incorrect, but a compiler (or my trained brain) wouldn't (doesn't) like it. |
Not so. It is actually grammatically correct and extremely logical to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks where it doesn't affect the meaning of the quotation. It is counterintuitive and illogical to put it anywhere else. I also have a computer science degree and it drives me spare too.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/2932 |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I also tend to put the punctuation outside of the quotation marks of a quotation. For example, "My job rocks". <----- That is grammatically incorrect, but a compiler (or my trained brain) wouldn't (doesn't) like it. |
Not so. It is actually grammatically correct and extremely logical to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks where it doesn't affect the meaning of the quotation. It is counterintuitive and illogical to put it anywhere else. I also have a computer science degree and it drives me spare too.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/2932 |
I think this is one of those cases where somebody takes personal preference and attaches to it the qualities of intuitiveness and logicality. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Actually, the punctuation and quotation marks thing is a difference between American and British standards. American standard prefers the punctuation inside the quotes, while British standard puts it outside.
While I'm used to the American standard, I recognize, as Geoffrey Pullum has pointed out, that it can violate the truth conditions of sentences. The British standard is better in this regard. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| I always put the punctuation outside the quote, too, unless the punctuation was part of the quote. Seems stupid to quote it if it wasn't originally spoken/written. |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| billybrobby wrote: |
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I also tend to put the punctuation outside of the quotation marks of a quotation. For example, "My job rocks". <----- That is grammatically incorrect, but a compiler (or my trained brain) wouldn't (doesn't) like it. |
Not so. It is actually grammatically correct and extremely logical to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks where it doesn't affect the meaning of the quotation. It is counterintuitive and illogical to put it anywhere else. I also have a computer science degree and it drives me spare too.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/2932 |
I think this is one of those cases where somebody takes personal preference and attaches to it the qualities of intuitiveness and logicality. |
Perhaps, but I don't think so. If you think about it, one of the reasons for putting words in quotation marks is to preserve the exact way that they were written or uttered. To place punctuation within those marks can alter (sometimes drastically) the meaning, thereby defeating the purpose of using the quotation marks in the first place. |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| billybrobby wrote: |
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I also tend to put the punctuation outside of the quotation marks of a quotation. For example, "My job rocks". <----- That is grammatically incorrect, but a compiler (or my trained brain) wouldn't (doesn't) like it. |
Not so. It is actually grammatically correct and extremely logical to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks where it doesn't affect the meaning of the quotation. It is counterintuitive and illogical to put it anywhere else. I also have a computer science degree and it drives me spare too.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/2932 |
I think this is one of those cases where somebody takes personal preference and attaches to it the qualities of intuitiveness and logicality. |
Perhaps, but I don't think so. If you think about it, one of the reasons for putting words in quotation marks is to preserve the exact way that they were written or uttered. To place punctuation within those marks can alter (sometimes drastically) the meaning, thereby defeating the purpose of using the quotation marks in the first place. |
Can you give me some examples of this? The only example I can think of involves the question mark. But in this case, the British way is equally as bad as the American way.
for example:
She said, "The store is only open on Sunday??"
If the woman is asking a question, how does the British way handle this?
Or
Did she say, "The store is only open on Sunday?"
If the woman is making a statement, how does the American way handle this?
You say that the American style forces you to add punctuation to quotes, but by the same turn, the British style forces you to delete punction. Seems equally bad. But maybe there's another example that I'm not thinking of.
ps--this sure is a hairsplitting argument, but it's interesting. |
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Sleepy in Seoul
Joined: 15 May 2004
Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| billybrobby wrote: |
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| billybrobby wrote: |
| Sleepy in Seoul wrote: |
| laogaiguk wrote: |
| I also tend to put the punctuation outside of the quotation marks of a quotation. For example, "My job rocks". <----- That is grammatically incorrect, but a compiler (or my trained brain) wouldn't (doesn't) like it. |
Not so. It is actually grammatically correct and extremely logical to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks where it doesn't affect the meaning of the quotation. It is counterintuitive and illogical to put it anywhere else. I also have a computer science degree and it drives me spare too.
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/2932 |
I think this is one of those cases where somebody takes personal preference and attaches to it the qualities of intuitiveness and logicality. |
Perhaps, but I don't think so. If you think about it, one of the reasons for putting words in quotation marks is to preserve the exact way that they were written or uttered. To place punctuation within those marks can alter (sometimes drastically) the meaning, thereby defeating the purpose of using the quotation marks in the first place. |
Can you give me some examples of this? The only example I can think of involves the question mark. But in this case, the British way is equally as bad as the American way.
for example:
She said, "The store is only open on Sunday??"
If the woman is asking a question, how does the British way handle this?
Or
Did she say, "The store is only open on Sunday?"
If the woman is making a statement, how does the American way handle this?
You say that the American style forces you to add punctuation to quotes, but by the same turn, the British style forces you to delete punction. Seems equally bad. But maybe there's another example that I'm not thinking of. |
I've never seen double question marks in any form of grammar. That seems a wee bit bizarre. Punctuation in the British style belongs inside the quotation marks if it belongs to the quote. Therefore, if the woman in your example is asking a question, the question mark belongs inside the quotation marks. It is not forced out, if that is what you mean. It is not doubled, either.
There are many, many examples of altered meaning with unintended punctuation placed inside the quotation marks. For example, to quote you,
| you wrote: |
| "If the woman is asking a question." |
In fact, I quoted only part of your sentence, yet American punctuation demands that if the sentence (not the quote) is finished, it is rendered as a complete quotation. It is not and can lead to ambiguity.
| Quote: |
| "The store is only open on Sunday?" |
Question:
Br. - "The store is only open on Sunday?"
Am. - "The store is only open on Sunday?"
Partial statement:
Br. - "The store is only open on Sunday".
Am. - "The store is only open on Sunday."
Complete statement:
Br - "The store is only open on Sunday."
Am. - "The store is only open on Sunday." |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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The double question mark isn't important, don't pay attention to it.
I originally thought you were for always putting punctuation outside the quotation because you said this:
| Quote: |
| It is actually grammatically correct and extremely logical to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks where it doesn't affect the meaning of the quotation. It is counterintuitive and illogical to put it anywhere else. |
But I guess I was misinterpreting it. I now see you are in favor of a flexible system that puts it inside or outside as needed. Which is good. Umm...yay for British punctuation. Now if you would change the illogical spelling of "theatre". |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| billybrobby wrote: |
The double question mark isn't important, don't pay attention to it.
I originally thought you were for always putting punctuation outside the quotation because you said this:
| Quote: |
| It is actually grammatically correct and extremely logical to place the punctuation outside the quotation marks where it doesn't affect the meaning of the quotation. It is counterintuitive and illogical to put it anywhere else. |
But I guess I was misinterpreting it. I now see you are in favor of a flexible system that puts it inside or outside as needed. Which is good. Umm...yay for British punctuation. Now if you would change the illogical spelling of "theatre". |
Why, if the French ever invaded again, you wouldn't have to change any of the signs  Argue with that!! 
This thread has been more interesting that I thought it would be. Also educational. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: phone numbers |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| By the way, I got assauted by___ and Jessica Alba last night in Itaewon! |
How is his right hook? |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| billybrobby wrote: |
| Now if you would change the illogical spelling of "theatre". |
Why is 're' illogical? Maybe it's the other way around? |
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Colorado
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Location: Public School with too much time on my hands.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Partial statement:
Br. - "The store is only open on Sunday".
Am. - "The store is only open on Sunday."
Incorrect.
American for a partial quotation would be:
"The store is only open on Sunday..."
Would BR be "The store is only open on Sunday" ... ? |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| Novernae wrote: |
| billybrobby wrote: |
| Now if you would change the illogical spelling of "theatre". |
Why is 're' illogical? Maybe it's the other way around? |
cuz it's not spelled like it's pronounced. Or do British people say it like thea-tray? |
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