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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: Does criticism of Israel = Anti-Semitism? |
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Here is a rather interesting opinion piece from the Haaratz. I think it might be of particular interest to our friend The Urban Myth.
The country that wouldn't grow up
By Tony Judt
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Before 1967 the State of Israel may have been tiny and embattled, but it was not typically hated: certainly not in the West.
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The Israeli nakba
But today everything is different. We can see, in retrospect, that the victory of Israel in June 1967 and its continuing occupation of the territories it conquered then have been the Jewish state's very own nakba: a moral and political catastrophe. Israel's actions in the West Bank and Gaza have magnified and publicized the country's shortcomings and displayed them to a watching world. Curfews, checkpoints, bulldozers, public humiliations, home destructions, land seizures, shootings, "targeted assassinations," the separation fence: All of these routines of occupation and repression were once familiar only to an informed minority of specialists and activists.
Today only a tiny minority of outsiders see Israelis as victims. The true victims, it is now widely accepted, are the Palestinians. Indeed, Palestinians have now displaced Jews as the emblematic persecuted minority: vulnerable, humiliated and stateless.
Such comparisons are lethal to Israel's moral credibility. They strike at what was once its strongest suit: the claim of being a vulnerable island of democracy and decency in a sea of authoritarianism and cruelty; an oasis of rights and freedoms surrounded by a desert of repression. But democrats don't fence into Bantustans helpless people whose land they have conquered, and free men don't ignore international law and steal other men's homes.
Collective cognitive dysfunction
But today the country's national narrative of macho victimhood appears to the rest of the world as simply bizarre: evidence of a sort of collective cognitive dysfunction that has gripped Israel's political culture. And the long cultivated persecution mania - "everyone's out to get us" - no longer elicits sympathy.
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Israel has stayed the same, but the world - as I noted above - has changed. Whatever purchase Israel's self-description still has upon the imagination of Israelis themselves, it no longer operates beyond the country's frontiers. Even the Holocaust can no longer be instrumentalized to excuse Israel's behavior. Thanks to the passage of time, most Western European states have now come to terms with their part in the Holocaust, something that was not true a quarter century ago. From Israel's point of view, this has had paradoxical consequences: Until the end of the Cold War Israeli governments could still play upon the guilt of Germans and other Europeans, exploiting their failure to acknowledge fully what was done to Jews on their territory. Today, now that the history of World War II is retreating from the public square into the classroom and from the classroom into the history books, a growing majority of voters in Europe and elsewhere (young voters above all) simply cannot understand how the horrors of the last European war can be invoked to license or condone unacceptable behavior in another time and place. In the eyes of a watching world, the fact that the great-grandmother of an Israeli soldier died in Treblinka is no excuse for his own abusive treatment of a Palestinian woman waiting to cross a checkpoint. "Remember Auschwitz" is not an acceptable response.
And so, shorn of all other justifications for its behavior, Israel and its supporters today fall back with increasing shrillness upon the oldest claim of all: Israel is a Jewish state and that is why people criticize it. This - the charge that criticism of Israel is implicitly anti-Semitic - is regarded in Israel and the United States as Israel's trump card. If it has been played more insistently and aggressively in recent years, that is because it is now the only card left.
The habit of tarring any foreign criticism with the brush of anti-Semitism is deeply engrained in Israeli political instincts: Ariel Sharon used it with characteristic excess but he was only the latest in a long line of Israeli leaders to exploit the claim. David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir did no different. But Jews outside of Israel pay a high price for this tactic. Not only does it inhibit their own criticisms of Israel for fear of appearing to associate with bad company, but it encourages others to look upon Jews everywhere as de facto collaborators in Israel's misbehavior. When Israel breaks international law in the occupied territories, when Israel publicly humiliates the subject populations whose land it has seized - but then responds to its critics with loud cries of "anti-Semitism" - it is in effect saying that these acts are not Israeli acts, they are Jewish acts: The occupation is not an Israeli occupation, it is a Jewish occupation, and if you don't like these things it is because you don't like Jews.
For full article click here
Edited in order to comply with the 'not too long' rule.
Last edited by Big_Bird on Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:29 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Boodleheimer

Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Location: working undercover for the Man
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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i love your posts, bb. they really raise issues!
hugs from Taebaek. |
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Pligganease

Joined: 14 Sep 2004 Location: The deep south...
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Does criticism of any Islamic country equal anti-Islamic bigotry? |
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Scaggs
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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TLDR
I am Jewish, my sister is an Israeli, I criticize Israel sharply. I am not a self-hating Jew. I don't hate Jews. I feel like both parties have commited grevious faults and continue to do so. I can go into more detail, but the simple answer to a simple question is no. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:05 am Post subject: |
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It depends on the delivery.
If the criticism is part of a career of criticism of the same group, then it is more than just disagreement with a policy or action. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
If the criticism is part of a career of criticism of the same group, then it is more than just disagreement with a policy or action. |
Very well said, Ya-ta. |
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Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Location: the eye
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Why doesn't Iran grow up? I think stoning women to death for minor infractions is a bit naughty. Or even Syria, which has been brutalising and oppressing its kurds. and so on.
Should Arab nations be held to the same high standards of scrutiny that Israel is constantly under? Someone farts in Tel Aviv and theres an international outcry.
Why does the media pay more attention to the Arab-Israeli conflict than they do to the more bloody and equally long-standing conflicts in the Sudan and Somalia?
In the last year alone, more people died as a result of internecine warfare in Darfur than in the entire Arab-Israeli Conflict. |
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ChuckECheese

Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:49 am Post subject: |
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Scaggs wrote: |
TLDR
I am Jewish, my sister is an Israeli, I criticize Israel sharply. I am not a self-hating Jew. I don't hate Jews. I feel like both parties have commited grevious faults and continue to do so. I can go into more detail, but the simple answer to a simple question is no. |
Are you always in a gray mood?
So your stance is that when your compadres are getting their asses unwound by neighboring dudes, you would just stand there and watch? And at the end of the fight, you would just offer your personal view to the victor? You are good, but also bad. Loser is bad, but also good.
Which side are you on dude? |
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Scaggs
Joined: 19 Sep 2006
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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ChuckECheese wrote: |
Scaggs wrote: |
TLDR
I am Jewish, my sister is an Israeli, I criticize Israel sharply. I am not a self-hating Jew. I don't hate Jews. I feel like both parties have commited grevious faults and continue to do so. I can go into more detail, but the simple answer to a simple question is no. |
Are you always in a gray mood?
So your stance is that when your compadres are getting their asses unwound by neighboring dudes, you would just stand there and watch? And at the end of the fight, you would just offer your personal view to the victor? You are good, but also bad. Loser is bad, but also good.
Which side are you on dude? |
I am not on either side. I have the good fortune of not being part of the conflict. I do not think violence is a solution. That is not to say that I have a better one. The conflict seems fairly intractable without a watershed event that completely changes the dynamic. As a whole I have more sympathy for the Palestinians, as by and large their lives are considerably more difficult and hold far fewer opportunities, but I know that many people both, Palestinian and Israeli, have suffered a great deal and they all have my sympathy. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:20 am Post subject: |
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KWhitehead wrote: |
i love your posts, bb. they really raise issues!
hugs from Taebaek. |
Cheers, nice to know one is appreciated!
For me this is quite an interesting topic. It seems to me that the charge of anti-semitism (which I believe is a very serious charge and should never be made lightly) is often used as a big stick to hit critics of Israeli government policy. I think that when used like this, the charge is cheapened. I also know several people, however, who privately admit to being so afraid of coming across as anti-semitic that they never openly criticise Israel's policies when the topic comes up in conversation, even though they feel quite strongly against them. So it is rather an effective stick. It doesn't work on me though, and my Israeli friends* know very well how I feel about their leadership's stance on the occupation. Fortunately, they recognise that my condemnation is of the system and the leadership, not the average man on the street.
* I'm sure (knowing the delightful little community of posters here) that someone will be itching to pipe up with that hoary old 'some of my best friends are jews' line. You can stuff it up your arse already!  |
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Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Location: the eye
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:38 am Post subject: |
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Big_Bird wrote: |
and my Israeli friends* know very well how I feel about their leadership's stance on the occupation. |
And i'm sure they're very grateful for your opinion, one no different to the majority of westerners brainwashed by the western media.
Hmm.. why don't you post outraged messages about the Sudan where muslims have been relentlessly ethnically cleansing native tribes? more people have died in the fighting there in the last year alone, than the entire arab-Istraeli conflict!
Blaming everything on Israel is the cowardly and easy thing to do, Big bird. You're hardly going against the tide.
If you really wanted to show bravery and perspective, you'd start looking at the cesspits of corruption and oppression that are the Arab states. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:35 am Post subject: |
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Junior wrote: |
And i'm sure they're very grateful for your opinion, one no different to the majority of westerners brainwashed by the western media. |
Frankly, the media where I am currently residing is virulently pro-Israeli. The bias is often quite stunning, you'd enjoy it.
Quote: |
Hmm.. why don't you post outraged messages about the Sudan where muslims have been relentlessly ethnically cleansing native tribes? more people have died in the fighting there in the last year alone, than the entire arab-Istraeli conflict! |
What's the point? Saying the Sudan situation is horrific and outrageous is like saying the sun comes up every morning. Nobody here is likely to disagree. There is a consensus, and therefore no scope for debate. If, however, half the posters here were saying that the Sudanese of the South had it coming to them, were wild savage Arab haters who refused to behave decently and had no-one to blame but themselves yadayadayada, it would indeed make interesting discussion. But that's not the case here is it?
Quote: |
If you really wanted to show bravery and perspective, you'd start looking at the cesspits of corruption and oppression that are the Arab states. |
Again, what would there be to debate about? I haven't spotted any posts saying that the House of Saud is a shining example of progressive leadership, for example.
I'm interested in looking at those situations where my people/government, and those that we choose to ally ourselves with, are complicit. I believe the past actions and non-action of my successive governments have contributed to great wrong toward the Palestinian people. |
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Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Location: the eye
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Big_Bird wrote: |
contributed to great wrong toward the Palestinian people. |
You spew emotive and tired cliches like like ball bearings from a hezbollah rocket in a residential area.
Time for your education Miss bird.
The Myth of Oppression - The Great Arab Lie
Let me address ten myths the Arab Nations and the Palestinians have foisted upon the naive public.
The so called displaced members of the nation of Palestine foment a myth that the Palestinian is oppressed by the Jewish people in Israel and around the world. They myth includes geographical references to the region that are not supported by any written history and ignore International Law, chronological defeats in war, or rationale discussion.
Myth One: The Territory of Palestine
According to scholars the world over, if there ever was a so called Palestine, it was located hundreds of miles east of Jerusalem, dead center in the heart of Jordan. In fact, early in the twentieth century, the nation that is now Jordan expelled would be Palestinians -- the historical ties to the land that lies in Jordan was removed centuries ago when Arab tribes pushed the nomads who might today have called themselves Palestinians out of that area. Immigration into the area that was within the borders of the granted State of Israel was through the arab equivalent of homesteading or trade amongst owners of invalid or undocumented title. Territory outside the original boundaries was conquered land and under International law, remains the property of Israel. However, in order to appease Arab neighbors, Israel has ceded land back to Jordan and Egypt, creating a tender peace between Israel and those two countries. Israel has also ceded back some territory to Syria and Lebanon. However, Israel drew lines that they believed would provide security from attack on their northern and northeastern borders.
Myth Two: The Palestinians are a race or a culture
The term Palestinian refers to Palestine. Palestine existed in 1000 B.C. and before. It was a Jewish conquered territory at that time. There are no Palestinians descended from Arabs of that time and place, only Jews.
There is no Arab Palestinian race, culture or similar notion. The dwellers of the region who were displaced centuries ago had no government, organization, or capital. In fact they had no leaders, officials, or tribal recognition. They were simply nomads and homesteaders -- squatters who were regularly displaced by other landowners who themselves abandoned the area The tribes the Jews displaced were wanders and squatters who other Arab tribal leaders came along and kicked off their land. They didn't even have a language or credo. They were treated by the Arab tribes as unclean and usually less than human. Before 1930, population growth in the area finally annexed by the grant of the Israeli state had been populated about 2/3 arabs of various ethnic factions. There was little land sale recording, however, it is clear that both Jews and Arabs owned land at near about the same ratio (2/3 Arab, 1/3 Jew). This is the proud heritage that so called Palestinians wish you to believe entitles them to chunks of land in Israel.
Myth Three: The Israeli government oppresses those who would call themselves Palestinians
There is no way to identify Palestinians. No DNA, no practices, no address. They ARE Christians, Jews, and Muslims. In the case of Muslims, there are a handful of Muslim factions who also call themselves Palestinians.
There are no laws in Israel that identify or separate Jews from Christians, or Jews from Muslims. Israel has a equal rights provision in its constitution and is a signatory to the human rights conventions. Security regulations restricting movement in Israel did not exist until the number of terrorist attacks against Jewish people became so large that the costs of treatment of wounded and burials became a significant portion of the countries GNP.
Non-Palestinians -- those with no ancestral ties to the nomads of the region -- from outside the occupied territories bring weapons and credos that foment the killing of Jews and those in the refuge camps gladly do their bidding.
Nothing in Israeli Law notes the difference between any human in Israel, and until the violence began to peak, Israeli leaders refrained from taking steps to identify the so called Palestinian. Today separation has been the only semi-effective means to control, to some degree the violence. On many occasions, the separation and restrictions on movement have been rescinded, only to be accompanied by a huge jump in murders of Israeli Jews and Christians, and Muslims who work next to them.
Myth Four: Oppression of the Palestinians is intentional economic oppression
The average educational level of the so called street Palestinian is high school level whereas the education of the average Israeli is higher, nearing a 80% college graduate level. Israelis and Palestinians compete for jobs and Israelis win the higher paid and more authoritative jobs.
There IS an economic distinction between Israelis and so called Palestinians. Muslim schools in Israel are not funded by Israel, the Muslim schools refuse Jewish funds. Jewish schools are well funded and teach modern mathematics, decision making, economics, and science. Muslim schools teach Whabbism, hatred and death to the Jew. The average Palestinian cannot hold a job in a technical field, and woman are not allowed to attend school, and thus half the population of the Palestinians rarely contribute to the economic advantage of the Palestinian.
Boys and girls are taught equally and the notion of equal rights to all is taught in the Jewish schools. In Muslim schools girls must wear the burka and they are not taught the same lessons and are second class citizens. Western science is rarely taught and mathematics levels are dismal.
Palestinians who wish to attend college travel to enlightened Arab states who have real educational systems in place. Or they attend western nation schools and then return. The local institutions are not open to girls and women and few Palestinians can afford to attend anyway. There are few if any scholarships presented by Arab nations for so called Palestinians, nor is there any reasonably sized effort to find jobs for Palestinians in the Arab nations surrounding Israel. Thus is it rationale to say Israel is economically oppressing the Palestinian? Who is really oppressing the Palestinians? Their own Arab "brothers".
The Palestinian Authority receives millions from Arab nations presumably to help the people -- to build and run schools, buy food for the majority who cannot feed themselves, yet the Authority allows rocket and mortar attacks to be executed from right next to and in some cases from within schools and hospitals. When Israel retaliates against those sources, schools and hospitals and indeed neighborhoods get damaged or destroyed. The Palestinian Authority is very slow to rebuild and does not prevent terrorists from setting up their bases for attack next to or within schools or hospitals.
Without proper schools, the Palestinians (Jews, Muslims, and Christians) cannot get the education required to advance their place economically. The oppression comes from within the Arab community, not from Israel.
Israel has offered to provide public schools but non-Jewish parents, adult attendees or their leaders have steadfastly refused, stating that their own Muslim oriented schools are fine. Israel has offered to provide funding to help the Muslim Schools upgrade their level of teaching to help their attendees get better jobs in the world as well as within Israel. Again this aid is refused.
Myth Five: Israel murders Arabs by the carloads
Patently untrue, this myth is pure propaganda. In the decades since Israel became a nation, more Israelis have been killed by Arabs by at least two magnitudes. Only in recent years has Israeli retaliation began to increase, yet the number of killed Palestinians is no where near the rate of murders of Israelis by terrorists. Again the numbers are more than two magnitudes apart. Israeli retaliation targets are tactical -- bomb factories, hideouts of key terrorists or in some cases a vehicle transporting terrorists. Terrorist targets are almost always civilians or guards at checkpoints. The civilians are unarmed and usually include children. Children are killed in Israeli retaliation because the Terrorists make their bases or build bombs, load mortar shells and other such activities n buildings where innocents live.
Israeli police and soldiers wear uniforms and positioned, with their arms in plain sight. Terrorists hide bombs on their bodies or hide their guns and then open fire while hiding among the innocent including their own people working, eating, or playing amongst Israelis.
Israel has ceased retaliation for months at a time on the promise that they will let the cycle of violence cease and talks between the Palestinian Authority and Israel can resume towards a peaceful settlement. In every case, Israel has patiently waited while the violence stopped, trickled back into being, and then became wholesale slaughter against Israelis again before resuming retaliatory attacks.
Israel has paid the price for conciliatory gestures with huge numbers of Israeli lives, all lost for nothing -- the violence has continued on and on..
Myth Six: Israel has created prison living for Palestinians and restricting freedom
In the late 1980s Israel setup checkpoints on major thoroughfares within Israel that led between typically Jewish settlements and so called Palestinian settlements. The Palestinians do not have the economy to buy or even rent homes thus live in refugee camps. They live in these camps because they did not come from a home and move into Israel because it was a decision they made. They migrated because they were forced out of Arab run nations of Lebanon, Syria, Egypt or Jordan. They DID flee during years of wars between Israel and their neighbors and thus became refugees. Until violence increased between Arab and Jew in Israel, there were no security measures to separate the so called Palestinians and the Israelis. Over the decades since the 80s, the separation has become complete, including a security wall.
The separation is necessary because outside forces have funded and supplied Arab terrorists with huge rockets and mortars so they can be setup just outside Jewish Settlements and fire into those settlements killing scores of Israelis.
Helicopter patrols seek to spot these attackers and thus provide a clear indication of Israeli vigilance in those areas bordering the Israeli settlements. These aircraft attack known bomb factories or hideouts.
While some of this has worked to decrease the violence, the fact remains that homicide bombers still blow up buses in the cities of Israel on a regular basis and Israeli deaths continue to rise at a rate higher than those non-Israelis in the so called occupied territories.
Myth Seven: Palestinians cannot build an infrastructure because Israel keeps destroying it.
Israeli retaliation occurs against bomb factories and sources of incoming fire. An analysis of the buildings destroyed is less than 1% of all the buildings in the area controlled by the Palestinian Authority.. The edges of Palestinian Authority controlled areas that face Arab nations could easily become "no combat" zone and flourish, simply by controlling where would be terrorists operate. However, the PA has no such control and the Arab Nations turn a blind eye to their brethren who foment terrorism in Israel. Lebanon and Syria are clearly not interested in building a flourishing area for so called Palestinians and refuse to let them settle across their borders -- in fact the passage into Lebanon and Syria across Israeli borders is highly restricted and is one way allowing terrorists into Israel and no Palestinian settlers out of Israel.
The funding for the Palestinian Authority is more than adequate to build schools, living quarters, and fund targeted programs to better the Palestinian educational level and create small business. However, for some reason, the funds do not get spent.
The PA does not produce an audit of where its funds are being spent. Arab donations go into a black hole and violence comes out. Would an accounting of funds to the Palestinians reveal funds going toward guns, ammunition for guns and mortars, mortars, rockets and launchers? Until the PA produces a clear and verifiable audit of Arab funding, there will never be a true reckoning of why the Palestinian infrastructure does not exist. If Palestine does become a state, will the leaders suddenly open their books? This is very doubtful.
Myth Eight: The Palestinian State Will Resolve the Terrorism Problem for Israel
Events in Ramallah during the infatada and in the Iraqi cities of Najaf, Baghdad and Fallujah clearly indicate the level of civilization of the terrorists involved. To believe that these people will go live peacefully effectively inside Israel is not only naive, but clearly wishful thinking.
After a period of Euphoria, the people in Palestine will realize they have no education, no imports, no exports, and no industry. Street vendors will be the wealthiest people in the nation and soon they will be victims of theft or murdered for their product. Then the Palestinian State will look outside for reasons for their despicable condition and find Jews living better and happier.
At that point the violence will start again. The prediction is that this will occur within ten years of the official formation of the Palestinian State. The result of that external expansion of violence will be an Israeli incursion and a resumption of the conditions that existed in 2000-2004.
Myth Nine: The United States Is An Accomplice in Israel's Oppression of the Palestinians
The United States HAS been a staunch ally of Israel. At the last moment in the Yom Kippur War, the U.S. started delivering resupplies thanks to a General who essentially disobeyed orders in order to help save the Israeli nation. When the Israelis retaliated against Palestinian attacks that murdered Israeli citizens, the U.S. counseled restraint and put on pressure using proposed cuts in U.S. weapons supplies (similar to that before the Yom Kippur War). No one seems to preach that same restraint to Terrorists being sent from Lebanon, Syria and Iran.
The U.S. also supports Saudi Arabia in its mature moderation of OPEC oil accounts. The U.S. also supports Jordan and Egypt's peace with Israel.
Rhetoric against the U.S. is solely based on the U.S. support of Israel the nation, not Israel's reaction to the violence done to the nation's people. The U.S. support for Saudi Arabia includes ever increasing pressure for the Saudi Royals to reform their governance of its people. There are no Arabs "under the oppressive thumb" of the United States. Not now, and not in the past.
Myth Ten: The United States is a Killer of Arabs and Palestinians, and Iraq is the Proof
The U.S. totally not involved in any violence against Palestinians. In Lebanon in the 1980s was the only opportunity for the U.S. to kill Arabs. Ships pounded Lebanese positions with offshore gunfire in support of U.N. forces. When Marines were killed wholesale in their barracks, the U.S. was part of a United Nations force that consisted of Muslims and Christian nations. Terrorists murdered U.S. Marines, not the other way around. Syria killed Arabs and Jews alike, but there is no infatada against Syria.
In Iraq, the U.S. is more than willing to leave when the Iraqi security forces are ready to manage their own security, and the government of Iraq will make that request. When it is made, the U.S. will be gone quite rapidly. The violence leading up to the elections in Iraq indicated why Arab terrorists want the U.S. gone -- not because of anything the U.S. has done to the Arab peoples, but what our policy of democracy will mean for the terrorists.
Bid Laden and al-Zarqawi have stated it clearly. They want a radical religious government in all nations in the Middle East, if not the entire world. The violence will not stop until they are destroyed or their dream of running the world under radical Islamic law is realized. |
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Boodleheimer

Joined: 10 Mar 2006 Location: working undercover for the Man
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: |
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citations, please. |
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Junior

Joined: 18 Nov 2005 Location: the eye
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Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: |
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KWhitehead wrote: |
citations, please. |
Disprove it if you want to try.
Would evidence affect your opinions in the slightest anyway?
Why not choose from one of these diversions that defeat truth in an instant?:
I don't accept your sources
Stop preaching hate
Your a nut job
Give me proper peer-reviewed sources
Thats bull
Propoganda
your sauces are incredible
What personal reasons do you have for saying that
Thats racist
etc etc etc.
"prove it" is usually followed by "your sources are questionable', which is typically followed by "stop preaching hate". Just so you get the correct order. |
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