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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: Muslims to be expelled? |
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A serious question.
"Within twenty years, Europe will have expelled the vast majority of her muslim citizens and non-citizens."
Do you agree with the above statement?
Keep in mind, I'm not asking "what do you think of me", or "call me names" or "do you want it to happen" or "why do you not want it to happen" but "will it happen?".
I've spoken with many Europeans lately, and I have discovered that every single one of them will privately admit (after a few beers, sometimes) that 1) they want the muslims expelled and 2) so does virtually every other European that they know. What has been really surprising to me is that these haven't been the rabid right-wing types, but those with typically liberal European ideas about welfare, equality and silly opinions about "those Americans", among others.
Some sample reading:
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/07/news/europe.php
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Giulio Cordese, 50, a salesman in an Italian delicatessen in Berlin, added: "We have to make a point here. Personally, I would expel all Muslims in the concerned countries. Because they simply don't accept democratic rules here."
"When Muslims say you are not showing respect, I would say: you are not asking for my respect, you are asking for my submission," he said.
That apprehension was echoed in an editorial in the Dutch newspaper NRC Handelsblad that said: "In America, few people fear that they will have to live according to the norms of Islam. In European countries, with a large or growing Muslim minority, there is a real fear that behind the demand for respect hides another agenda: the threat that everyone must adjust to the rules of Islam."
In response, some fear that it is European values and freedoms that are under direct threat. |
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=34cbfbb7-eb95-4e77-a155-3904297e45de
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The Muslims refused to assimilate. They were expelled. This was the story in Europe 400 years ago. We are watching the sequel today.
Europeans are rarely welcoming to outsiders, even when the outsiders are blond and blue-eyed and come from the country next door. When the outsiders are un-European, swarthy and Muslim, they are tolerated at best. When some Muslims also insist that Europeans stop acting like Europeans, on pain of death, European tolerance comes to an end.
Europe's Muslims now know that they are expected to integrate or to depart. Four centuries ago, after decades of threats of expulsion, forced conversions and other failed attempts to assimilate Muslims, complaints about them -- their use of Arabic, their clothes, their rejection of Western culture -- were similar. "They marry among themselves and do not mix with Old Christians," complained one report of Spain's Moriscos (Muslims who had undergone forced conversions to Christianity). Riots by Muslims at offences perpetrated upon them added to tensions. In the end, still not assimilated, most were expelled. |
http://www.nysun.com/pf.php?id=41106
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After years of dithering over political correctness with Muslims and Islam, Europe is waking up to a different morning.
A three-week tour of Italy, France, and Britain last month was enough for me to conclude that Western Europeans have moved way beyond dialogue. Confrontation, indeed even provocation, is their preferred approach to the Muslims in their midst.
Shortly before and after the pope's pointed remarks on Islam � in which he added to his earlier statements that Turkey's 70 million Muslims have no place in "Christian Europe" � there were numerous other mini-explosions. They included Dutch revulsion over the ritual Muslim killing of the movie director Theo van Gogh; the Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad; and, most recently, a September 19 article in Le Figaro by the French philosopher and schoolteacher Robert Redeker that made the case that Muslims are bent on muzzling Europe's democratic values.
Europe is no longer dithering. Every other week, parliaments are restricting the freedom of expression of Muslim fundamentalists, preachers, and madrassas, and questioning every value that militant Islam has attempted to sneak into the Continent over the past 20 years.
The dialogue is over. The time for action is closing in. |
Thoughts? |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:21 pm Post subject: |
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How can you expel someone for their religion, especially when most are citizens of that country? Sure there are some massive issues to be dealt with, but this is not Germany of the 1930s. Speaking of which, lets not forget that Jews were seen as being beyond the pale around that time too and lumped together as a group. Would there be some kind of standards test, or just blanket deportations? There is a debate that needs to be had here, but your anecdotal evidence of meeting Europeans over a beer and a blanket view of their beliefs is so nonsensical as to defy belief in a debate of this nature. Even some of the less clever monkeys on stormfront.org can back up their arguments better than that  |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Then your answer is 'no', eh? |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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The people refered to in the article still lie. The issue is far more complicated than kicking Muslims out becuase they don't "conform". After the Muslims are the legions of Blacker than the Ace of Spades Africans coming over in waves from Senegal who will have to be fended off.
It looks like I'm saying Europeans are racist or some other worn and tired Pavlovian manipulator and I suppose I am but I'm also raising the topic of interracial/inercultural shakedowns. This is the art of going somewhere to where people look different than you do and then insisting they share half of their wealth else be slanded with foul names. This is called tolerance and inclusivity. The Africans come because Africa is a regressive and unlivable mess made that way by Africans. The movement however is a viewed as testing the Europeans respect for fellow man. Such abuse!
The greatest flaw of the pro-xeno movement is the unspoken insistance that someone that is different from you is better in every single way. That can never be yet the insistance remains. The relationship between the two countries, the sender and the reciever has always been off limits for discussion. That needs to stop.
Dude, you can't but recognize an unhealthy relationship where one party breeds uncontrollably and then belches out its problems not unlike developed nations sending out pollution.
After review events, I've concluded that race = place. There are a few steps that might make migration meritable but in the end, restricted migration is good migration else we all choose the cultures and land of the rich and light skinned but insist its all about open mindedness. Those actions will eventually fail since there is no solid foundation of concept. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Then your answer is 'no', eh? |
Probably not, after all, self interest is a powerful motivator. Should my wife, my child and I decide to move back to the UK, we really wouldn't want to be rounded up and deported, would you? |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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How can you expel someone for their religion, especially when most are citizens of that country? Sure there are some massive issues to be dealt with, but this is not Germany of the 1930s. Speaking of which, lets not forget that Jews were seen as being beyond the pale around that time too and lumped together as a group. Would there be some kind of standards test, or just blanket deportations? There is a debate that needs to be had here, but your anecdotal evidence of meeting Europeans over a beer and a blanket view of their beliefs is so nonsensical as to defy belief in a debate of this nature. Even some of the less clever monkeys on stormfront.org can back up their arguments better than that
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jaganth, you have an immature politic. There is no difference between stormfront.org and the Kingdom of Suadi Arabia other than skin color. Stop hiding behind the Jews, its irritating and childish. |
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Nambucaveman
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to remind people to remain civil in their conversations. If you can't do that, please don't post. Otherwise we will end up locking the thread.
Thanks,
NC |
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Manner of Speaking
Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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A few years ago I read an article in National Geographic about immigration into western Europe from North Africa and Eastern Europe. The article pointed out that there are approximately three times as many recent immigrants and refugees in Europe as there are in the US or Canada. I think it's the sheer volume of immigrants that is causing tension in Europe, not the religion of the immigrants per se.
I don't think "Muslims" will be "expelled" from Europe, because how can you "expell" native-born Muslims, or converts? It would be a gross violation of personal liberties. For recent Muslim immigrants, it would probably be just plain too expensive to "expell" them all. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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MOS I agree with you. That is why I said "vast majority". Converts and other "visibly European" muslims maybe have a better chance of staying.
In the end, xenophobic Europe is still xenophobic Europe and I think, at the very least, this is going to become an increasingly important topic. Presently, political correctness is acting as a dam, holding back an ocean of this xenophobia. But, I think cracks in the dam are forming. What happens when it breaks? What could cause it to break?
Jag. I didn't ask if you wanted them (you?) to be kicked out, or if you could compare me to a Nazi, but if you thought that this may happen? The NY Sun, IHT and National Post are hardly comparable to StromFront.
My personal opinion is that aggressively secular Europe cannot exist peacefully with aggressively religious muslims. That should be obvious to anyone. But I really don't know how this can be resolved... Should Europe allow itself to be bred out of existence? Or, should she commit what is at the very least a massively immoral action and deport people based upon religion? There is no clearly "right" answer. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| I've concluded that race = place |
I believe the German phrase for that is Blut und Boden.
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| dulouz wrote: |
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How can you expel someone for their religion, especially when most are citizens of that country? Sure there are some massive issues to be dealt with, but this is not Germany of the 1930s. Speaking of which, lets not forget that Jews were seen as being beyond the pale around that time too and lumped together as a group. Would there be some kind of standards test, or just blanket deportations? There is a debate that needs to be had here, but your anecdotal evidence of meeting Europeans over a beer and a blanket view of their beliefs is so nonsensical as to defy belief in a debate of this nature. Even some of the less clever monkeys on stormfront.org can back up their arguments better than that
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jaganth, you have an immature politic. There is no difference between stormfront.org and the Kingdom of Suadi Arabia other than skin color. Stop hiding behind the Jews, its irritating and childish. |
No disagreements with the sentiments re SF and KSA, however the Jews remain a potent historical lesson, nothing irritating nor childish about that. If you can't see the historical parallels between the removal of one religious group and another you have no hope. Also an interesting point to note, certain clauses of the Genocide Convention may be breached if forced repatriation is brought to bare. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Blood and Soil is a good policy. It prevents mischief from all angles. You'll always have a safe place to go, there will always be someplece to put you so you will be safe and prevents excessive lebensraum mischief.
According to multiculturalism, its ok if whole groups of people disappear as long as they were replaced with anyone else. I have red flags over that for many reasons. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:25 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Jag. I didn't ask if you wanted them (you?) to be kicked out, or if you could compare me to a Nazi, but if you thought that this may happen? The NY Sun, IHT and National Post are hardly comparable to StromFront.
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Sorry, wasn't trying to compare you to a Nazi, although notions of forced repatriation and that particular ideology aren't strange bedfellows. What I was trying to get at is the needless anectdotal evidence, the man in the bar strawpoll, which does disservice to the wider debate that is needed. My appols if you were offended.
The send em home rhetoric of the tabloids certainly has widespread political currency, on the continent and over the channel. However, besides being totally impractical and unacheivable without major human rights violations, its an easy way out of the debate on values, which is sorely needed. I have a few suggestions of my own about the things that need to be done to combat the aggressive Islamic fringe and their behaviour in western countries, but will keep them to myself for the time being so as not to hijack the thread. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:34 am Post subject: |
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No disagreements with the sentiments re SF and KSA, however the Jews remain a potent historical lesson, nothing irritating nor childish about that. If you can't see the historical parallels between the removal of one religious group and another you have no hope. Also an interesting point to note, certain clauses of the Genocide Convention may be breached if forced repatriation is brought to bare.
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After living with illegal immigrant in the USA, I have a whole new look on ethnic cleansing and Hitler and all the others. Exporting our illegal migrants will be tantamount to ethnic cleansing albeit without the death camps. In this case the action is ethically justified.
In B school, we were told to that relying on the contract meant the end to an agreement. I went to a religous grad school and we had to tkae a bible class and we were told there as well that the rules are minimal expectations. Here in Korea, I turn down deals that look too good.
My point is that relying on the Geneva Convention is a poor strategy. The West is the only entity or entities that uphold the Convention. You have to plan for the day when the West gets tired of the duty or is no longer interested in supporting it. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:38 am Post subject: |
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things need to be done but expelling isn't the option or an option. Agree with you jaganath but I don't agree with your patience for those on here who spread hate and filth.
Dulouz (and mods, please listen). Statements such as ,
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| Dude, you can't but recognize an unhealthy relationship where one party breeds uncontrollably and then belches out its problems not unlike developed nations sending out pollution. |
and
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Stop hiding behind the Jews, its irritating and childish. |
are just plain ignorant and HATEFUL. Not to mention all the garbage of thoughts you gusher, just one below I've picked at random to show the randomness of your own hollow cortex.
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| The Africans come because Africa is a regressive and unlivable mess made that way by Africans. The movement however is a viewed as testing the Europeans respect for fellow man. Such abuse! |
You wouldn't even pass my grade 4 class!
How about they come because of a little of the European history sprinkled over them.....and that what we see in the immigration issue of Europe is very much an issue of post colonialism. Also, very much an issue of Africans and others doing a multitude of dirty, underpaid, little paid, degrading jobs.
Again I call you views for what they are. La Haine.
DD |
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