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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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mateo, permanent magnet motors do not break the laws of thermodynamics. This is a red herring. It's akin to calling anyone who doubts the gov't. a conspiracy nut and is used in that way in the area of energy production to protect the virtual oil monopoly.
Why, you ask? Simple: we don't understand all forms of energy at this time. To my mind, we will find that the so-called dark matter will be found to be the source of any energies created - should a permanent magnet, "over-unity" machine ever be created. However, it could be as simple as the Earth's magnetic field supplying it, gravity in some way, or some combination of those and more. Who knows? This assumption that all energy phenomena are known and fully understood is simplistic and arrogant. Ten years ago dark matter was the subject of the alternative energy "nuts", but is now understood to be a fundamental truth. Go figure.
When something that makes up the huge majority of all energy in the universe is almost completely unknown, there are an awful lot of changes to textbooks coming down the line in the near or far future. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Another interesting site:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
I think the nay-sayers are going to be joining the ranks of the "human flight
is impossible" crowd in the not so distant future.
There are some very interesting things being tested and some show some very promising results.
Devices that draw on the earth's magnetic field and somehow convert it to usable energy ....  |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
There are some very interesting things being tested and some show some very promising results. |
Tested by? There have been a lot of these backyard tinker guys claiming they've stumbled upon some new source of energy (usually involving magnets). None have actually been able to pass true tests. Good luck to these people but I'll not invest. |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Your statement may be true. However, my long time on the Internet has clued me into the warning signs of raving psychosis.
Warning sign #1: Terrible Web Site Design
http://perendev-power.com/
Need I say more?
Warning sign #2: Extreme Conceit
| pesn.com article on Michael J. Brady wrote: |
| Refusing to be daunted by what he considers to be petty dogmas of academic science, inventor Michael J. Brady of Johannesburg... |
Warning sign #3: Petty squabbles with other nutcases
| pesn.com article on Michael J. Brady wrote: |
| Other inventors who claim to have built working all-magnetic motors would take exception to the Perendev claim to being the first, as stated on the site. Brady mentioned that he had noticed some inaccuracies on the wording on the site and that he would be addressing them. |
Warning sign #4: Excessive secrecy
| pesn.com article on Michael J. Brady wrote: |
| The name of the German company will be revealed when they have finished tooling up and are ready to begin production... |
Give me an article that doesn't scream "NUTCASE NUTCASE NUTCASE" and I'll take it more seriously. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| mateomiguel wrote: |
Your statement may be true. However, my long time on the Internet has clued me into the warning signs of raving psychosis.
Warning sign #1: Terrible Web Site Design
http://perendev-power.com/
Need I say more?
Warning sign #2: Extreme Conceit
| pesn.com article on Michael J. Brady wrote: |
| Refusing to be daunted by what he considers to be petty dogmas of academic science, inventor Michael J. Brady of Johannesburg... |
Warning sign #3: Petty squabbles with other nutcases
| pesn.com article on Michael J. Brady wrote: |
| Other inventors who claim to have built working all-magnetic motors would take exception to the Perendev claim to being the first, as stated on the site. Brady mentioned that he had noticed some inaccuracies on the wording on the site and that he would be addressing them. |
Warning sign #4: Excessive secrecy
| pesn.com article on Michael J. Brady wrote: |
| The name of the German company will be revealed when they have finished tooling up and are ready to begin production... |
Give me an article that doesn't scream "NUTCASE NUTCASE NUTCASE" and I'll take it more seriously. |
I could have been more clear, but notice I didn't address the claim, I addressed your link to the Laws of Thermodynamics. I saw it as a statement that any machine claiming overunity must be breaking the L of T, thus is quackery.
The odds are that any given claim is either just bad science, quackery (a true nut) or, most likely, fraud. However, I am uncomfortable with the general refusal to accept seeming over-unity as possible. I just can't understand the purposeful stifling of scientific enquiry. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: |
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There are tons of these. Two that seem to have some promise are the Lutec1000 (less so all the time, however) and the recent one in Scotland. That one is notable for having taken out an ad in the.... what was it? Economist?... asking for a panel to evaluate the thing. The name escapes me, but google scotland, over-unity, magnet motor, free energy, etc., and you'll find it.
As for the backyard tinkerers, the only one I think has done some interesting work toward very high efficiency is Bedini. He works on very small scales however. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:59 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
There are some very interesting things being tested and some show some very promising results. |
Tested by? There have been a lot of these backyard tinker guys claiming they've stumbled upon some new source of energy (usually involving magnets). None have actually been able to pass true tests. Good luck to these people but I'll not invest. |
I wouldn't invest my money either. However, I would like to see this get checked out to see if there is anything to it.
The promising results I was talking about were from this site:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Main_Page
Where 100 new ideas are being tried out, tested, etc.
There are a lot of these guys on youtube right now, some claim to be running cars on water and others have more exotic experimentation going on. I really like the new Japanese electric motorcyle "SUMO".
It not only works well, it looks pretty cool too. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn
The irish guys.
| Quote: |
| Steorn acknowledges that its claimed technology appears to violate the principle of conservation of energy, a fundamental law of physics which forms the basis of the first law of thermodynamics. Steorn's claimed invention therefore appears to be a perpetual motion machine of the first kind. Given the long history of hoaxes involving such perpetual motion devices, claims of this sort have hitherto met with scepticism (usually flat-out denial) from the scientific community. |
Are you of aware of anything else that violates this well-tested law of science? |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| I just can't understand the purposeful stifling of scientific enquiry. |
If my refusal to believe in this 'scientific inquiry' stifles it, we're not talking about science at all but something more like religion. Science usually welcomes and embraces skepticism and takes the opportunity to explain in more detail until the skeptic is satisfied. Crackpots and loonies usually take a holier-than-thou stance or ask for more funding.
For the entire span of human history, all the energy we've gotten has been in conversion of one form of matter to another. It used to be just fire. Then it became really hot fire (steam power, coal power). Then it became really REALLY hot fire (gasoline/diesel combustion) and after that EXTREMELY hot fire (nuclear energy). All the forms of energy share the same common trait in that you must put fuel into the system, the system consumes this fuel, and reteurns a %age of it as usable energy. It usually also returns a %age as unusuable energy too. This has all been observed to occur with several distinguishing characteristics which have been named the Laws of Thermodynamics.
This engine and others like it claim to generate energy without putting anything into the system. I claim that they got to be putting something into the system, and they should us what it is. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think these things violate the law of thermodynamics at all.
It may be that they are drawing energy from some outside source, such as the earth's magnetic field. The problems arise because the guys who invent these things usually have no clue how to explain them.
http://www.freeenergynews.com/news/index.html |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
I don't think these things violate the law of thermodynamics at all.
It may be that they are drawing energy from some outside source, such as the earth's magnetic field. The problems arise because the guys who invent these things usually have no clue how to explain them.
http://www.freeenergynews.com/news/index.html |
Well, the Irish guys claim it does violate the law. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know about that, I am not a physicist. What I am saying is that people who make such claims perhaps don't really know what is causing the phenomenon they are describing.
What laws is this guy defying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p42JnyypCo0
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| some waygug-in wrote: |
I don't think these things violate the law of thermodynamics at all.
It may be that they are drawing energy from some outside source, such as the earth's magnetic field. The problems arise because the guys who invent these things usually have no clue how to explain them.
http://www.freeenergynews.com/news/index.html |
Well, the Irish guys claim it does violate the law. |
Incorrect. Nobody knows what exactly is happening. The word "appears", whic is what their website states, needs to be stressed here. And you need to be careful about assuming the current laws of physics will always be as they are. After all, haven't we just learned the speed of light is **not** constant? Given that new fact, relativity is a little bent and not quite as solid an idea as it seemed.
The "stifling" comes from ridiculing anyone who appears to be breaking one of your precious laws. Critical inquiry does not equal ridicule and dismissal.
All this was said earlier in the thread. As on other threads, you simply choose to see what you want, not what is. Give us, for example, a reason why the energy cannot be coming from the magnetic field of the Earth? The simple mass of the Earth, et. al.? Dark matter? |
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