Korean Job Discussion Forums

[Gopher]

Whenever I say that if one is going to allege "conspiracy!" s/he would need to cite direct evidence, those who are wedded to the idea of conspiracy theories usually respond "such evidence would not exist, therefore what I allege cannot be disproven," or something like that.

Oh, but it does.

Get past the preliminary pages of bureaucratese and look at the substance of the 1962 JCS proposal (per Robert Kennedy's instructions) to create a believable series of pretexts that would justify a U.S. invasion of Cuba. It is linked below.

Excerpts include (and this is only about 1/10th of it)...

[EFLtrainer]

And you started a new thread on this rather than posting in the currently active thread because...?

Oh, and Northwoods has been discussed substantially with regards to both 9/11 and Iraq. Way to catch up with the conversation.

Mods, please lock.

[Gopher]

Thanks for the response.

Actually, this is not a 9/11-specific thread, but a "conspiracy" thread in general. (And I do not believe I mentioned "Iraq," either.)

Conspiracies, disinformation, and black propaganda campaigns are very old. Did you know that Jacobo Arbenz responded to PBSUCCESS's simulated air force and mock bombing campaign by destroying Guatemalan houses and then presenting this "evidence" to the UN?

CIA, lacking actual bomber forces, was at first confused that there had been an actual bombing, but, after having all stations report, headquarters explained that the Arbenz regime...

[EFLtrainer]

I am confused by the linkage of looking at other conspiracies to figure out current possible conspiracies. What is the point? We have subtantial knowledge of conspiracies: Northwoods (a near conspiracy), the Bay of Pigs, Iran, the ones you mention, Gulf of Tonkin, etc. All these do is give more credence to the idea we have conspiracies going on now.

We know Iraq, for example was, and is, a successful conspiracy. That is, they pulled it off. Hopefully it will not remain one and people will be tried and convicted, the world brought back from the brink. Now, how far the Iraq conspiracy goes... we do not yet know.

As for 9/11, I do not believe proof or evidence will come in the form of memos and memorandums. Times have changed. People have learned to better protect the paper/electronic trail. However, there is evidence that may prove to be proof. A simple one is the puts on the airline stocks. It's amazing, but who made those investment is still not revealed despite it supposedly being impossible to do anonymously. Hmm.... There is also the leaseholder of the WTC stating on tape that WTC was "pulled"... but where is the investigation of this statement?

Etc.

This might be an interesting thread, but many of the conspiracies have already been cited in various threads on this forum.

[Gopher]

That is not entirely true. The more times change, the more things stay the same, in many respects anyway. One cannot organize anything without records: orders, authorizations, plans, etc. I also have a very hard time believing that this particular govt, with all of its competency issues, with respect to waging war and peace in Iraq and even responding to domestic crises in the Gulf States, could somehow have flawlessly pioneered the new art of planning, managing, and executing such a complex, multi-part conspiracy with no written records at all.

And I regret that you have not heard of the comparative approach or that, at least, you do not recognize its value.

By looking at known conspiracy theories, and the evidence that surrounds them, we can get a very good idea about a great deal of things.

For example, even the most unlikely perpetrators of conspiracies keep (and sometimes forget about) detailed records...

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB170/index.htm

That is, lots of detailed records.

Also, in the United States govt, people take hand-written notes whenever the President talks to them (and others take those notes and type them up)...

http://foia.state.gov/documents/PNARA3/000097BC.pdf

Indeed, others also take notes of the same thing, making additional copies of the conversation available...

http://foia.state.gov/documents/PNARA3/00008B09.pdf

This case -- that is, Track II in Chile -- is a particularly illuminating comparative conspiracy case. Did you know that the President ordered the CIA director to bypass the entire governmental machinery. This meant the NSC, the 40 Committee, State, State's area division, the embassy, and others. It was, Helms noted, the most secret operation he recalled in all of his career, including his time in the WWII-era OSS. And still there were written records; and, moreoever, these records were available and in Congress's hands, and then published for everyone, less than two years after the conspiracy had taken place.

There should be all kinds of written evidence available on any alleged U.S. govt 9/11 conspiracy, then. People like Powell and his partisan supporters would almost certainly have mentioned something (indeed, anything) by now, too. People like those Senators and Congressmen and their huge staffs on the Senate and House intelligence oversight committees would undoubtedly have found (heard of? asked about? mentioned?) something.

I reiterate, then: that no such records, of any size, shape, or form, have appeared with regards the 9/11 conspiracy theory -- or even been mentioned or sought after by name or agency -- is in and of itself a significant negative indicator. At the very least, as each day passes and no dox or indeed no refs to any dox whatsoever become available, it becomes less likely that there is anything to "uncover" here at all.

However this may be, this thread treats conspiracy theories and hard evidence in a comparative context. I suspect (and indeed I know) that the vast majority of the threads on this board that have treated "conspiracy theories" in the past, have dealt almost purely with allegations, innuendo, and circumstantial evidence only. I offer a data-based, reality-based discussion. And that, I believe, makes this an entirely new thread.

[EFLtrainer]

[Meegook]

[Gopher]