|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
|
 Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: Rude awakening for Koreans vis a vis Canada |
 |
|
Twice in one day I had two Koreans mention some article they read about a Chinese Phd guy who killed himself. They seemed surprised Canada was so "unfriendly" to immigrants.
Anyone also get this? I suspect a lot of Koreans with desires to immigrate have come to think of Canada as some friction free paradise.
The two Koreans I've spoken to seem fixated on the idea that Canada highly discriminates against immigrants. Coming from software where I worked shoulder to shoulder with Chinese, Vietnamese, Russians, and Indians, I can't exactly say I saw any kind of discrimination. Hell, we'd all eat lunch together. It always seemed us whiteys would be, to the Chinese and Indians, "where are you guys going for lunch? Can I go? I can't eat another Harvey's hamburger..." (One thing I noticed about Chinese restaurants for Chinese people in Toronto, they had the English menu, but then they had a wall menu all written in Chinese. Specials of the day or something. Everything tacked up on the wall was always priced lower than anything in the English menu. Another good reason to tag along with your Chinese coworkers. Good, cheap eats.) (Another time I remember this one Chinese immigrant programmer tried to put in his resignation the day before a company wide lay off. The boss refused his resignation. "You fool, they're about to lay you off and pay you severance and other benefits!")
| Quote: |
| "The loss of status from their home countries can have a great impact on their self-perception," says Silveira, who heads the Portuguese team at Toronto Western Hospital. |
I suspect this is a bigger problem. It's akin to the ESL teacher who comes to Korea and hates everything. "The food is too spicy! I don't like the food!" We'd only blame his lack of research, not Korea.
A Chinese male with with an advanced education would be a high status male in China. He comes to Canada, he has to prove himself. Simple as that. It's probably a bit of a shock to a man who has enjoyed open doors and status based solely on his sex and education.
It's a pity many immigrants trained in their nations for high status jobs can't get immediately qualified in Canada where we have different standards. Hell, in Washington State they didn't recognize my Canadian drivers license and I had to take my road test. Again, no one said to these people immigration wouldn't be a struggle. Most do it for their children. No? That Canada bends over backwards to address their needs and is actively looking at how to qualify people trained as doctors in China or India, I think still speaks volumes. Hell our governor general is a Haitian woman.
The streets are not paved with gold. Oh well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| What I notice about many Korean people, even those who've lived abroad for a long time and (to my mind anywayway) really ought to know better, is that they really seem to believe that the West is a paradise chockablock full of open-minded who would never tolerate any racism or discrimination in their egalitarian societies. Either Hollywood is doing a better global brainwashing job than we all though, or to Korean eyes it really is it that way.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I can relate to the English teacher who says he does not really like Korean food, in general, and he finds it too spicy. I like a few dishes like Sogogee Da Pa, Korean curry, Dak galbee, P Bimbab. I just, sometimes, find the red pepper kind of overbearing. I prefer Indian food, which seems to have a balance of spices. I think that may have to do with this idea of balance in some parts of Indian culture including with the food.
No one asked me about a Chinese fellow who committed suicide. I am sure life is difficult for many immigrants. Especially, since it is hard to transition in Canada when you don't have either a Canadian or an American degree. It is better in the U.S. when it comes to that regard. They look at your experience and where you worked more. Canada doesn't do as much of that.
As far as prejudice, it is there. I have a friend who has a bi-racial child (her father is African American). She is asked where her daughter is originally from. She says from Canada. Then many of those who ask, "Yes, but where is she originally from?" What do you say "A slave ship that came to the U.S., that came from Africa, and then her father and I produced this children. She also had ugly stares because of her child. So there are very unsalutary racial relations that we might not be aware of in Canada.
As far as the U.S. and your driver's license, I was not allowed to buy a beer one time in a Boston university event I attended from Canada after showing them my Canadian passport. I didn't have a U.S. driver's license. I was clearly above the U.S. legal age for drinking, but they would not recognize my passport. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Carleton University in Ottawa, wouldn't recognize my friend from California's Driver's Licence. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Canadian Club
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| Carleton University in Ottawa, wouldn't recognize my friend from California's Driver's Licence. |
Was he trying to get into Ollie's? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Lemon
Joined: 11 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
As far as the U.S. and your driver's license, I was not allowed to buy a beer one time in a Boston university event I attended from Canada after showing them my Canadian passport. I didn't have a U.S. driver's license. I was clearly above the U.S. legal age for drinking, but they would not recognize my passport.
|
Heh. I was out with friends in Providence, RI one night when the bouncer wouldn't let me in with my Nova Scotia drivers license. "Oh you're really Canadian? Say your birthday in French then."
Unfortunately, we'd already been to other bars, my French isn't great, and I'm pretty sure I told him I was born in 1920.
He was satisfied with the response though and let me in. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Octavius Hite
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Location: Househunting, looking for a new bunker from which to convert the world to homosexuality.
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yes, it was trying to get into Ollie's to go and see Dustin Diamond perform, so I guess it was a good thing he got turned away in the end. The Godess works in mysterous ways. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:20 pm Post subject: Re: Rude awakening for Koreans vis a vis Canada |
|
|
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| (One thing I noticed about Chinese restaurants for Chinese people in Toronto, they had the English menu, but then they had a wall menu all written in Chinese. Specials of the day or something. Everything tacked up on the wall was always priced lower than anything in the English menu. Another good reason to tag along with your Chinese coworkers. Good, cheap eats.) |
Since this thread seems to have already gone somewhat off-track...
If you don't have Chinese co-workers, you can still teach yourself to read the menu on the wall using James McCawley's The Eater's Guide to Chinese Characters, which is designed to teach non-Chinese speakers to read the characters commonly used on menus. He also argued that you could use this book to avoid restaurants like the Golden Dragon in Melbourne, Australia where the CHinese characters below the sign read "Occcidental Food."
McCawley was one of the great linguists of the 20th century (who organized Hangul Day celebrations at the University of Chicago) and a passionate fan of oriental cuisines. One of the treats of living in Chicago was getting his annual review of Chinese, Japanese, Thai, and Korean restaurants in the city. I can truly say that he never steered me wrong in that regard. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I am sure life is difficult for many immigrants. Especially, since it is hard to transition in Canada when you don't have either a Canadian or an American degree. It is better in the U.S. when it comes to that regard. They look at your experience and where you worked more. Canada doesn't do as much of that. |
Can you elaborate on this? I really haven't heard of a general feeling of experience over location in the US before, especially when compared to Canada. Do you really feel that employers are more accepting of immigrants in the US than in Canada? Can you offer any evidence of this? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Novernae wrote: |
| Can you offer any evidence of this? |
This link does not treat the comparison you are looking for. I suspect you object to it because you are a Canadian and it goes against everything that Canadians usually tell themselves about themselves vis-a-vis the United States, and such an assertion, then, is really hard to swallow (at least for some Canadians). Or, conversely, you are an American who squirms everytime someone says something that is not harshly critical of the U.S.
However this may be (and maybe Adventurer's assertion is wrong; maybe it is right; I really do not know), this link reflects what some Canadian immigrants are saying and, in that way at least, answers your question...
http://www.notcanada.com/
I think that such comparisons as you seek miss the fundamental point, however. It is not easy to immigrate and live an immigrant's life anywhere in the world -- and neither the U.S. nor Canada are unique here, even if immigrants are more welcome and tend to fare better in either of these two countries than anywhere else outside of a very few West European states. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Octavius Hite wrote: |
| see Dustin Diamond perform. |
LOL |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 1:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gopher wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
| Can you offer any evidence of this? |
This link does not treat the comparison you are looking for. I suspect you object to it because you are a Canadian and it goes against everything that Canadians usually tell themselves about themselves vis-a-vis the United States, and such an assertion, then, is really hard to swallow (at least for some Canadians). Or, conversely, you are an American who squirms everytime someone says something that is not harshly critical of the U.S.
However this may be (and maybe Adventurer's assertion is wrong; maybe it is right; I really do not know), this link reflects what some Canadian immigrants are saying and, in that way at least, answers your question...
http://www.notcanada.com/
I think that such comparisons as you seek miss the fundamental point, however. It is not easy to immigrate and live an immigrant's life anywhere in the world -- and neither the U.S. nor Canada are unique here, even if immigrants are more welcome and tend to fare better in either of these two countries than anywhere else outside of a very few West European states. |
I think you were reading too much into my query. I fit neither of your two assumptions. My question didn't imply any judgment of either Canada or the US. It was simply a request for some sort of information to back up a claim. No political agenda (neither pro-Canadian nor anti-American). It's frustratingly difficult to ask questions in this PC world without being judged and categorized (though you did so in a very polite manner, so I thank you for that at least  ).
Your last paragraph is well said and in some ways makes the point I was trying to make. While there might be differences in employee treatment, which, when acknowledged could be potentially fixed, the stress of immigration (esp cultural stresses and misunderstandings) plays a much higher role in failure than on the job treatment (though the straws do add up).
I am fully aware of the problems immigrants face in Canada and would never hold Canada up as an example. I wouldn't hold any other county up either because I don't know enough about their immigration issues. I never hear discussion of immigration issues beyond the US illegal immigration tirades, and more recently the European debate on who to accept. These deal only with initial immigration and not the extended treatment of the individuals after they have immigrated. This is why I was interested in Adventurer's claim.
As an example of the Canadian problem with regards to highly trained workers, Canada could, and should be doing a lot more for immigrant certification. In the medical field, for example, foreign doctors have to repeat their residency, but they only have access to the placements after all the Canadian students are placed. A foreign specialist in a popular area basically has to abandon all hope of ever practicing that specialty in Canada as the Canadian students pick up the spots first, every year. Even with the regular, more common specialties there are not enough positions for foreign trained doctors to recertify. All of this at a time of extreme doctor shortages in Canada. Canada accepts them as immigrants based on their education level and once they arrive, they aren't allowed to use that education.
Anyway, Adventurer, I'd still like some information to support your claim... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
From that "not canada" site.
| Quote: |
Top 8 reasons to go to Canada.
8. Discriminatory and Dishonest Immigration System.
Immigration to Canada is based on a point system, obtained with your education, qualifications and job experience. Points are good enough for immigration, but in Canada, they are not good enough to get a job in your field. Amazing, how the credentials that qualify you to come to Canada are the same credentials that don't qualify you for your profession in Canada. The reason is, Canada only wants immigrants to do the labor jobs - pizza delivery, driving taxis, factory work etc.
7. Out Of Control Cost Of Living.
From rent, to utility bills, to shopping, to phone, internet and cable bills, to gas, to car insurance, to eating out, to basically anything you have to pay for or buy, the cost of living in Canada has become astronomical. Recent immigrants are astonished as to how expensive everything is. It is estimated that compared to most countries around the world, the cost of living in Canada is on average five times greater.
6. Health Care Crisis.
Practicing physicians in Canada are in a shortage, 1 in 4 Canadians cannot get a family doctor. Canadian doctors are leaving to move permanently to the United States. Statistics Canada and the Canadian Medical Association both have identified that for every 1 American doctor that moves to Canada, 19 (nineteen) Canadian doctors move to the United States! Doctors in Canada are overworked and underpaid, and there is a cap on their salaries.
5. Very High Taxes.
Yes, you have the GST, the PST, totaling 15%, on practically everything you purchase and many other taxes taken out of our weekly paycheck. You have to pay a whopping amount to the government, out of your hard earned salary, so that the government can turn around and give it to beer drinking, hockey watching welfare bums. Fair? It does not matter, it's Canada.
4. Money Hungry Government.
Canadian Embassies around the world lie to foreigners, painting this picture that Canada is Utopia, because they want them to come to Canada. Why? Because foreigners bring money! So after being deceived, these foreigners come. They must bring with them at least $10,000. Canada has an immigration quota of 250,000 per year. So please do the math, 250,000 multiplied by $10,000 each equals a whopping 2.5 Billion dollars that Canada gains from immigrants every year.
3. No Culture.
Unlike almost every other country in the world, Canada has no culture. Actually American culture is what dominates Canada. When was the last time you had some 'Canadian' food? There are no Canadian traditions and there is no national identity. What does it even mean to call yourself a 'Canadian'. . .nothing really. People living in Canada, still identify themselves with the country they 'originally' came from.
2. Worst Weather.
Yes, Canada has the worst weather conditions of any country in the world. Freezing cold temperatures, snow, ice, hail, winds, storms etc. From the Prairie provinces to the Maritimes, from the Territories to southern Ontario, the weather is so horrific and disgusting that many Canadians leave Canada simply because of this reason alone.
1. No Jobs.
Yes, coast to coast, there are no jobs. Immigrants are highly qualified (MD's, PhD's, Lawyers, Engineers etc.) but they are driving taxi cabs, delivering pizza's or working in factories. Even people with bachelors degrees from Canadian Universities cannot find jobs after graduation. This is the tragedy associated with immigration to Canada. I feel sorry for those immigrants who are stuck in Canada for the rest of their lives. It is indeed a very sad and hopeless future.
written by
Asad Raza, M.D.
www.NotCanada.com |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Rude awakening for Koreans vis a vis Canada |
|
|
[quote="mindmetoo"]
| Quote: |
| They seemed surprised Canada was so "unfriendly" to immigrants. |
Aww. 
Perhaps when korea becomes foreigner friendly and offers a variety of good jobs to immigrants, maybe even pays them on time..then they could expect the same treatment in other countries?
Korea needs to realise that things are reciprocal in the world. I have heard koreans talking at length about Canada. They regard it virtually as their right to go and live there, and literally in the same breath say that Korea is a country only for Koreans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Novernae wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I am sure life is difficult for many immigrants. Especially, since it is hard to transition in Canada when you don't have either a Canadian or an American degree. It is better in the U.S. when it comes to that regard. They look at your experience and where you worked more. Canada doesn't do as much of that. |
Can you elaborate on this? I really haven't heard of a general feeling of experience over location in the US before, especially when compared to Canada. Do you really feel that employers are more accepting of immigrants in the US than in Canada? Can you offer any evidence of this? |
I am not sure how I can elaborate on this beyond saying I saw a program in Canada talking about this. On top of that, it is what immigrants recounted to me. Also a friend of mine in Newfoundland told me of how a woman from Angola who was babysitting in the province was formerly a heart surgeon in Angola with many years of experience.
It is easier for a person from another country to become a doctor in the U.S. if they study say in Latin America than to be one in Canada. The U.S. is more flexible than Canada when it comes to credentials. If you can somehow demonstrate that you are qualified via your experience, I would say you have a better chance in getting accepted. Of course, we are talking about immigration to the U.S. and Canada and working. In some cases, though, the U.S. or Canada may reject someone with an accounting degree from say Jordan or Costa Rica. But they could easily do their master's degree there. If you studied in the U.K, the U.S., Australia, I don't think you would really have much of a problem. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
