Korean Job Discussion Forums

[pocariboy73]

delete

[BigBlackEquus]

I've been one of the people talking about it recently. I'm a newbee to uni teaching, but I have heard that the 3 to 4 (less than 5) year rule is in effect at more schools due to some sort of tenure issue.

We really need someone like Real Reality, PR, or Beav to explain the details on this, but I'll give it a shot until they chime in...

The rumor I heard/read is that the problem started in Japan. Foreign teachers were demanding tenure and equal treatment after working a certain number of years. Japan went out of its way to make sure it didn't happen. Laws were even passed, although I don't know the details.

I seem to remember a message on EFL-Law about some law which was inacted (I think in Korea) which said that foreigners should automatically receive tenure if they served the proper time, did the work, etc. This could well have been in Japan, but I do know that EFL law was discussing the Korean reaction to this. I think the same series of events basically happened in both countries.

A rumored letter that went out from some Korean gov't educational branch to several universities. In the letter, schools (I believe these were the main gov't schools, mostly) were advised to get rid of foreigners before the 5 year mark, so that they could not reach the law's requirement for tenure. Basically, they know that if a foreigner reaches the requirement, and sues to get it, they will lose in the courts. The solution? Make sure this NEVER happens.

I am not sure if the letter went merely to certain government unis, or exactly where. EFL-Law was searching for more information about it in order to make a law case before the Korean supreme court, if memory serves. Your uni was probably not on the list. Someone else who knows more about all of this is welcome to chime in.

What I can tell you, after living in Korea for over 4 years, is that Koreans are ULTRA-PROTECTIVE of their own. You'll find this is true in everything from rice to selling TVs to education. To hell with what actually might be better for the country in general -- certain people control the money flow and the gov't, and they aren't about to give up any power. They don't want a foreign business to have too much control here, and they don't want foreign professors getting too much power/money at their universities. It's just plain simple: they are protectionist freaks.

There are foreigners in Korea who have tenure. At least one does on this board. It seems that certain elements in the educational government want to keep very tight controls on it happening anymore -- especially at the larger schools.

[JongnoGuru]

So what happens with the foreign teachers who just hang on and on in Korea and won't go a-way, they jump from one university in Korea to another university in Korea when they hit the 3- or 4-year limit. Some even jump BACK to their previous university after a year or two, and the 3-year clock then starts winding down again. Funkytown career, but I guess that's how a foreigner who will not go a-way remains a university teacher in Korea.

On a semi-related note, some friends who teach at universities here have recently said that "uni-gwon-isation"(?) has become something of the SARS epidemic of the university job market. They work at universities once or still generally thought to be immune to it, but they claim to "see the signs", to "see the writing on the wall", etc.

"Guru, don't tell anyone I said this, but XYZ University is being hagwonised, and in 2 years it'll be just like working for a hagwon. "

"Who am I going to tell? And why the secrecy anyway? People on Dave's ESL Cafe know about it and talk about it."

"Yeah, but nobody at THIS university expects it will ever happen here. None of these younger/newer teachers here are privy to the same information I am, and once the word gets out, there'll be a stampede out of this school. Before that happens I'm going to plot my escape and be gone."

"Oh."

Is such paranoia warranted?

[Real Reality]

Some universities have established contract renewal limits for foreign instructors.

From Koreabridge Forums -> EFL Education -> EFL LAW
"Recently we have become aware of 5 cases of employees (teachers) who have worked for 4 or more years, with the same employer, NOT being renewed. (4 years, 2 x 7 years, 8 years, 13 years,)

...the Ministry has sent a directive to schools, universities, etc, that teachers with long service should not be re-employed. Those who have been told to date include University teachers, College teachers and some Epik teachers...it is a cynical attempt to prevent foreigners from getting Tenure should some enterprising teacher take the matter to court."
http://www.koreabridge.com/forums/index.php?s=3a11bf5acb1ea066f95691f43e581b51&showtopic=3343

Korean universities seem to follow a similar practice in Japanese universities.

Do not trust promises of tenure via "tenure track positions"
Tenure tracks, which last for three years and up, effectively put you through the same probation period as a contract. "Probation" might sound like a normal screening process if there was a standardized "up or out" tenure deadline. But there is none in Japan. In practice, few tenure tracks have actually ripened into tenure.

Common university tactics to avoid it have been 1) extending the 3-year probation period at the last minute, or 2) making life rough enough so that the faculty member leaves To see if tenure is likely at your institution, ask them how many tenured foreigners they have. If none, or only one or two tokeners, chances are that you will not get it. Do not think yourself exceptional.
A General Message For Educators Seeking A Job in the Japanese University System by David Alwinckle (Arudo Debito)
http://www.eltnews.com/guides/universities/universities1_1.shtml

Foreign scholars merit equal status
The foreign professor -- colleague or hired hand?
by John B. Kotch
http://joongangdaily.joins.com/200206/14/200206142349223599900090109011.html

[mindmetoo]

Microsoft several years ago got sued big time by its temps (ie contractors). Microsoft keeps a tight reign on full time staff. Temps are easy to get rid of in times of trouble. Anyway, temps tended to be treated like full time staff. They worked year round, for years, got invited to company parties, got discounted food in the cafs. Temps, however, weren't a) allowed to have a window office, even if the building was half empty b) allowed to buy stock at a 20% discount. This latter point became the focus of a lawsuit. If you were a temp working for years pre-2000, that meant the full timers were becoming millionaires and you weren't. The temps sued for these lost fortunes. The court agree with them, forcing MS to pay out a huge settlement.

The old temps came out rich but the case didn't do the current temps any favors. Microsoft now goes out of its way let temps know they are temps and nothing more. They're no longer allowed to work a full year at MS. I think it's 8 months. Once their contract is done, they're not allowed to be hired back for several months. Any company party, the temps are basically told to go sit in another room.

[Gord]

In the Microsoft case, the temps were also paid a higher wage than a full-time person. Had it not been for the run-up in the stock value, the case would unlikely to have gone to court as being a perma-temp paid quite well for people who lacked the paperwork to otherwise land a full-time job there.

[HapKi]

I have been working at the same college for 7 years and am not aware of any "3 year rule."

[coolsage]

Well, the conditions have deteriorated at my uni, and apparently at others as well.The four-week summer and winter vacation is gone, replaced by a four-weeks a year deal. Language Institute time has been extended from six weeks to eight over the course of the summer and winter breaks.Teachers with BAs in snake-charming are being hired, further degrading the professionalism, not to mention the pay-scale. The quality of the student body is also dropping, as standards are lowered to fill the seats. It's an unfortunate demographic reality; there are fewer little Koreans than there used to be. Soon there'll be less demand for the likes of us. It's getting to the time to consider other options.

[Zark]

I got caught by the "three-year rule".

I think the problem is that there is probably a regulation - perhaps not a "law" that is a bit unclear. My university was under review as the result of a scandal - and I think needed to comply with EVERYTHING just to stay out of further trouble.

Result was a French Professor with 12 years at the school - gone. Russian professor with 8 years at the school - gone. German professor with ? years - gone. English professor with 10 years there - gone next year. Cleaned house of some excellent people. Too bad. The school really lost out in the deal - or really, the students lost out.

Many universities DON'T follow the regulation - saying it is "unclear" - or so I have heard from others.

[mindmetoo]

[HapKi]

[Paji eh Wong]

[PRagic]

SNU has picked up the '3 year rule'. The teachers that have been there for several years and accumulated related pay increases are all out the door after next year. There will have to be a major hiring spree there, but I would caution against taking the job. The salary has been capped at 2.5, but last I heard they weren't even getting all of it (some excuse about insurance costs...). Also, the housing is a closet, and the department you'd work for is not even the English Department. The program is in a constant state of flux. Not the place to work that it used to be from what I understand. Avoidable, from what I hear now. They want too much out of the teachers for what they will pay.

Most foreigners here would not benefit from any supposed law stating that anyone in employment at a university would have to be given tenure. Even with the Ph.D., that is a fallacy. That is one of the largest urban myths here. The term limits are being imposed because the employer contributions to your retirement shoot way up after 5 years. What most teachers don't know is that you can recieve your retirement from the government after leaving one university and then simply deposit it with your new university. Whoever ends up employing you at year 5 and beyond has to start to really pony up, and it's a BIG increase. Don't believe it? Ask the main government office in Yoido or someone at your university. If you do plan on staying in Korea and bouncing around university jobs, check it out for sure.

If you are working at a university hakwon AND in the department, make sure that your TOTAL CUMULATIVE salary is reflected in your severance!

The hay day years of university teaching are behind us. Luckily, most of the long-termers here have F2 visas and will soon have permanent residency (don't know many long-termers that don't have Korean spouses...no offense to any out there that don't). With the added flexibility, there will be many more opportunities to take advantage of. The only downside about opting out of university employment is the paid vacations. Period.

[noguri]

[BigBlackEquus]

Thanks for the good explanation!