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Interested
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
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 Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:41 pm Post subject: Humans are using the resources of two planets |
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The world's ecosystems are being degraded at an unprecedented rate, and by 2050 humans will need at least two planets' worth of natural resources to live as they do now, the conservation group WWF warned today.
If everyone lived as Britons did, three planets would be needed to sustain the world's population, the group said.
The latest edition of WWF's two-yearly Living Planet Report showed the demand people placed on the natural world had tripled since 1961, and that humanity was using the planet's resources far more quickly than they could renew themselves. |
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/conservation/story/0,,1930244,00.html |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Humans are using the resources of two planets |
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| And most of the world isn't at our consumption rate either ! |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| One problem with that is that it forgets that the haves will never allow the have-nots to reach that level of consumption. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| One problem with that is that it forgets that the haves will never allow the have-nots to reach that level of consumption. |
I meant by country. It's harder to keep countries down, just China alone will screw that up hard.  |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| isn't that conservation group on TV on saturday nights? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Oh dear. What is to be done? I was looking at some stat about "environmental footprint". The USA was 10. Japan was 4. The world average was 2. Japan, one of the most efficient modern societies on the planet, a nation where with excellent public transit, nuclear power, people living in high density cities, etc. are still twice the world average.
Short of draconian laws, does anyone think we could get Americans (and Canadians) to live like even the Japanese in the space of a generation or two?
Seriously, besides bemoaning what the other guy is slurping up, what can be done? |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Oh dear. What is to be done? I was looking at some stat about "environmental footprint". The USA was 10. Japan was 4. The world average was 2. Japan, one of the most efficient modern societies on the planet, a nation where with excellent public transit, nuclear power, people living in high density cities, etc. are still twice the world average.
Short of draconian laws, does anyone think we could get Americans (and Canadians) to live like even the Japanese in the space of a generation or two?
Seriously, besides bemoaning what the other guy is slurping up, what can be done? |
Exactly, we produce so much many more resources than China (resources that they use to produce exports to to us, by the way), complaining about them producing and increasing amount of pollution is missing the point. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Oh dear. What is to be done? I was looking at some stat about "environmental footprint". The USA was 10. Japan was 4. The world average was 2. Japan, one of the most efficient modern societies on the planet, a nation where with excellent public transit, nuclear power, people living in high density cities, etc. are still twice the world average.
Short of draconian laws, does anyone think we could get Americans (and Canadians) to live like even the Japanese in the space of a generation or two?
Seriously, besides bemoaning what the other guy is slurping up, what can be done? |
In the US right now, environmental companies, companies that espouse alternative energies, more often indirectly than directly, are growing rapidly. There are environmental initiatives on the State level as well, most notably in California. But the key in the US is to undo the suburban home as an estate. Distance between work and home right now is often too great in America, and the problem is not necessarily laziness or affluence, but people cannot afford to live where they work. Something has to be done, at I believe it starts by attacking the extreme restrictions in zoning laws in the US. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
Oh dear. What is to be done? I was looking at some stat about "environmental footprint". The USA was 10. Japan was 4. The world average was 2. Japan, one of the most efficient modern societies on the planet, a nation where with excellent public transit, nuclear power, people living in high density cities, etc. are still twice the world average.
Short of draconian laws, does anyone think we could get Americans (and Canadians) to live like even the Japanese in the space of a generation or two?
Seriously, besides bemoaning what the other guy is slurping up, what can be done? |
In the US right now, environmental companies, companies that espouse alternative energies, more often indirectly than directly, are growing rapidly. There are environmental initiatives on the State level as well, most notably in California. But the key in the US is to undo the suburban home as an estate. Distance between work and home right now is often too great in America, and the problem is not necessarily laziness or affluence, but people cannot afford to live where they work. Something has to be done, at I believe it starts by attacking the extreme restrictions in zoning laws in the US. |
Some people will sell their homes and move into high density apartment complexes close to work but how long will this take until enough make an impact? People don't like living in the city because of the perception of crime. So first we have to clean up the crime problem?
And do they all still hop in their car and drive short distances to work? I would gather we need to build them subways and public transit and pay for that and convince Americans that a subway or bus is as good as a private car. Alternatively, we can give them hydrogen powered cars, but that means we need to generate a lot of electricity and that means we need more nuclear plants. And that means we need people to quit being freaked out by nuclear energy....
But again, we're just talking, initially, to really get Americans to live like Japanese people. I still don't think, beyond putting Saddam in charge, that a freedom loving nation like America will all get onside with that plan. |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| two planets? Pshaw! I predict three planets and two moons! |
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Yo!Chingo
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: Seoul Korea
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:38 am Post subject: |
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I studied Environmental Science and worked in the field for 5 years. Trust me on this one...the human race won't exist long enought to truly rape the planet. We'll destroy ourselves or Mother Earth will send a true plague upon us that will wipe us or 99.9% of us out.
One of the biggest problem my friends is medical science and those who want longer lives. If we still thought living to be 40 was a big deal like our ancestors then individuals really wouldn't be making that big of a dent, but living to our 70's and beyond has completely messed up that equation. We're essentially living the equivalent of 2 of our ancestors lives.
The other huge thing is our population. Too many people having too many kids=disaster. It's just plain selfish to have more than 2 children today.
I've given it alot of thought and I'm not sure having kids is a good idea given the fact that humanity will be extinct soon. Let the misery end here while I live high on the hog!
Last edited by Yo!Chingo on Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Obviously it can't continue, and something has to give. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Yo!Chingo wrote: |
| I studied Environmental Science and worked in the field for 5 years. Trust me on this one...the human race won't exist long enought to truly rape the planet. We'll destroy ourselves or Mother Earth will send a true plague upon us that will wipe us or 99.9% of us out. ! |
My problem here is every generation we've got a line of thinking that goes "20 years from now, forget it!" Too many people, not enough resources, etc.
This is best illustrated by the famous $10,000 bet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehrlich-Simon_bet |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
Oh dear. What is to be done? I was looking at some stat about "environmental footprint". The USA was 10. Japan was 4. The world average was 2. Japan, one of the most efficient modern societies on the planet, a nation where with excellent public transit, nuclear power, people living in high density cities, etc. are still twice the world average.
Short of draconian laws, does anyone think we could get Americans (and Canadians) to live like even the Japanese in the space of a generation or two?
Seriously, besides bemoaning what the other guy is slurping up, what can be done? |
In the US right now, environmental companies, companies that espouse alternative energies, more often indirectly than directly, are growing rapidly. There are environmental initiatives on the State level as well, most notably in California. But the key in the US is to undo the suburban home as an estate. Distance between work and home right now is often too great in America, and the problem is not necessarily laziness or affluence, but people cannot afford to live where they work. Something has to be done, at I believe it starts by attacking the extreme restrictions in zoning laws in the US. |
Some people will sell their homes and move into high density apartment complexes close to work but how long will this take until enough make an impact? People don't like living in the city because of the perception of crime. So first we have to clean up the crime problem?
And do they all still hop in their car and drive short distances to work? I would gather we need to build them subways and public transit and pay for that and convince Americans that a subway or bus is as good as a private car. Alternatively, we can give them hydrogen powered cars, but that means we need to generate a lot of electricity and that means we need more nuclear plants. And that means we need people to quit being freaked out by nuclear energy....
But again, we're just talking, initially, to really get Americans to live like Japanese people. I still don't think, beyond putting Saddam in charge, that a freedom loving nation like America will all get onside with that plan. |
I'm pretty sure Americans don't enjoy commuting long distances to work. My point is that because of property values they must do so. It's not that Americans are completely addicted to their big SUVs and their style of living, but that we haven't seen the market provide alternatives available to a variety of Americans. I'm confident that in the future, we will see a substantial number of Americans convert to products that cause less damage to the environment. The issue I'm worried about is when economics is stacked against the environment. As I said, it's not laziness or a desire to live in the suburbs that forces Americans to drive to work, it's property values.
If you were to say, "I don't think we can get Baby Boomers to reduce their environmental impact down to a 4," I would agree, and you'd probably be right if you identified even the generation that we are in as being unable to, but you might be surprised at that which successive generations are capable if given the right education and the sense of urgency.
Everyone here is spot on to say that if current trends continue, we're screwed. But when, since the advent of the Industrial Revolution, have current trends continued beyond a generation. Fifteen years ago we didn't have the internet, and not ten years were cell phones the exclusive province of the rich and affluent. I'm not saying we should be cavalier but I think mindmetoo is right, there will be options and there is hope... |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: |
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As scarce resources become even more scarce (due to competition for consumption between regions, groups, nations etc) their price will increase. We can never "run out" of anything, as long as a price-system is functioning.
Science got us into this mess and science will get us out. In most advanced nations virtually every environmental indicator is improving (the environment begins to improve after approx 5,000$GDP/head). We will find ways to power our cars without oil and ways to grow our food with much less water. Crop yields will expand and pollution will lessen. Science will find innovative solutions to the problems we face. The human race will survive just fine.
You environmental "end-timesers" all can run to the top of hills and wait for the end of the world with the rest of the religious wackos.
Here is an example of what I'm talking about.
Americans use "___" water than in 1980.
1) More
2) Less
3) The same.
What is the answer?
http://72.14.235.104/search?q=cache:dOVdm6QPaB8J:www.marginalrevolution.com/+marginalrevolution+americans+water+less&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=1 |
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