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nasigoreng
Joined: 14 May 2004
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 Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: The Rape of Europe |
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http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1609
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The Rape of Europe
From the desk of Paul Belien on Wed, 2006-10-25 20:57
The German author Henryk M. Broder recently told the Dutch newspaper De Volkskrant (12 October) that young Europeans who love freedom, better emigrate. Europe as we know it will no longer exist 20 years from now. Whilst sitting on a terrace in Berlin, Broder pointed to the other customers and the passers-by and said melancholically: �We are watching the world of yesterday.�
Europe is turning Muslim. As Broder is sixty years old he is not going to emigrate himself. �I am too old,� he said. However, he urged young people to get out and �move to Australia or New Zealand. That is the only option they have if they want to avoid the plagues that will turn the old continent uninhabitable.� |
Mod Edit: Edited copy/paste of article to less then 300 words. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:37 am Post subject: |
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I have long been an advocate of saying, writing, thinking, anything you want.
But this is just the last straw on this site -- where do you guys crawl out from??????
And continuing to drag out any shhhittty rag (yes, Brusselsjournal is an AGENDA - thus not near free as its mission statement desribes -- driven piece of pap. ). Dragging out these little stories and using it to pretend to represent all of the 1+ billion Muslim world. What simpletons, where do you guys crawl out from???
I won't even address the issue again (for the upteenth time) or be baited into another round of "let me demonize and shout to the heavens how evil Muslims are".
My question -- do you think, all the rhetoric of the White House and its lapdog press (national and press corp) since 9/11 is responsible for this black and white, simpleton notion of international reality? I am beginning to think so.
Hatred on this level needs an official face.
DD |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:14 am Post subject: yes |
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Man, someone can't handle the truth.
Must be nice to live under a rock.. |
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nasigoreng
Joined: 14 May 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: |
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I didn't see the article so much as a demonization piece on muslims but a interesting analysis on the origins and repercussions of the Muslim immigration trend in Europe:
Secular Europeans don't need kids to support them when they're older, so they don't have them because children are considered an inconvenience. Then the birthrates fall and the government has to bring in workers from elsewhere so the immigrant worker's taxes can keep the entitlement bubble alive. Next, the changing demographics alienate the native population. America is next. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| That is the only option they have if they want to avoid the plagues that will turn the old continent uninhabitable.� |
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| Next, the changing demographics alienate the native population. America is next. |
Hmmm. Sounds like demonization to me. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| nasigoreng wrote: |
I didn't see the article so much as a demonization piece on muslims but a interesting analysis on the origins and repercussions of the Muslim immigration trend in Europe:
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I wonder how it is you can see the article as the analysis you describe above, since nowhere is the origin or repercussion of muslim immigration discussed. It's mentioned in passing (and treated as a unquestioned evil) with little discussion. The increasing Islamic demographic in Europe is mentioned, and accepted without question. Not exactly an analysis. I'd like to see the figures that has Muslim babies at one third in 2025. The current Muslim population in th EU is 3.12%. One generation is going to increase in size by 10 times it's current size??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country
The guy has written an interesting polemic critiquing the tolerance of human secular societies. It's essentially a "you're with us, or you're against us" proposal, but put a lot better than Dubya managed. Border lays down the challenge that average, no church, joe is a wimp afraid of "Islamisation".
Personally, I think he's an old hysterical jew running around in Germany like grandpa simpson seeing death all around him. I don't think Islam is as big a threat as some people would have it. Exaggerated claims of "plagues" of "Islamisation" don't scare me, because I don't think it's real. Yes, there are a lot of problems with some fundamental ideas in Islam (as in Christianity). I have faith in secular democratic institutions and democratic societies to deal with a different ideology. If some people's religious practices are in conflict with societies ideologies, then those practices, or the practitioners, need to go. I'm just not convinced that muslims are that big a bogeyman.
BJWD said somthing of interest recently,
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| I'm a very committed secular-liberal. And that is my problem.. I see a deep threat to the final establishment of truly liberal and plural societies in muslims. And I will not pretend that a 'typical' muslim today is equal to your typical Christian today in their ideas about how a nation ought to be run. To equate the vast majority of one with the tiny minority of the other is a grave mistake. |
I think most of us arguing this issue back and forth on this board agree on the essential idea that are democratic societies are worth protecting.
Secular Humanists are more than ready to fight for what's important if they feel threatened enough. Personally, this secular humanist will, and has argued with Muslims over gay rights, the lack of a jewish conspiracy, and women's rights. Discussion is my preferred choice of attack, but if I'm confronted with a gang of raping, gay/jew bashers just wait a minute and I'll get my cricket bat and meet you on the corner. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:49 am Post subject: |
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| nasigoreng wrote: |
| America is next. |
umm yeah. I suggest you look at birth-rates at the US, which are quite high for an industrialized country. once again, the US is the exception and not the rule.
And if you mean immigrants in general and are not singling out Muslims, then perhaps there is some validity to your argument. Not much, but some nevertheless. If you are refering to Muslims, then you really have no idea what America is like. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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Good post HT. It is nice to be mentioned without being called names.
All I have ever wanted to do is criticize. And I don't criticize because I blindly hate muslims (though I do dislike Islam in the way I dislike all oppressive philosophy) but I criticize because I have a final end in mind (one with real individual rights) and I see increased religiosity -- from Muslims, Christians or whoever -- as an obstacle to this.
Most importantly, I am honest and realistic enough to direct my criticism to where it is most needed. This is why I seldom Bush-Bash...enough people are already doing it and the point has been more than made. But islam needs to be criticized, even if it is by some unimportant poster on a far-off site. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:00 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Good post HT. It is nice to be mentioned without being called names.
All I have ever wanted to do is criticize. And I don't criticize because I blindly hate muslims (though I do dislike Islam in the way I dislike all oppressive philosophy) but I criticize because I have a final end in mind (one with real individual rights) and I see increased religiosity -- from Muslims, Christians or whoever -- as an obstacle to this.
Most importantly, I am honest and realistic enough to direct my criticism to where it is most needed. This is why I seldom Bush-Bash...enough people are already doing it and the point has been more than made. But islam needs to be criticized, even if it is by some unimportant poster on a far-off site. |
Islam should be capitalized. Do you mean the Islamic religion or all Muslims. You are aware, I hope, that Islam is interpreted somewhat differently than it was some centuries ago, and, in some ways, they were more liberal in the Middle Ages in comparison today. When the Sufis were ousted in favour of Wahhabi elements you have the current result. I welcome progressive interpretations of any religion.
Muslims should not be treated as simply as wolves with a minority of sheep, so to speak. However, European states should accept immigrants who show they understand their respective languages, have skills to offer Europe. There are differences between Muslims. The Muslims of North America are generally more moderate than the ones that exist in Britain.
I think disproportionately the Muslims in England are from Pakistan while many of those in the U.S. are from the Mediterranean Arab countires and have many moderates and they have Christian minorities in their countries of origin.
I don't think one should say "We should be on an attack against Islam".
Instead, one should speak of core values that one holds dear to Western culture and that one must abide by to be a part of that society. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
1) Islam should be capitalized. 2) Do you mean the Islamic religion or all Muslims. 3) You are aware, I hope, that Islam is interpreted somewhat differently than it was some centuries ago, and, in some ways, they were more liberal in the Middle Ages in comparison today. When the Sufis were ousted in favour of Wahhabi elements you have the current result. I welcome progressive interpretations of any religion.
4) I don't think one should say "We should be on an attack against Islam".
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My numbers.
1) No. I refuse to. Worry about your own writing.
2) Read my post. Did I say "islam" or "muslims"? You are aware, I hope, that "islam" is an idea and "muslims" are people who follow the idea.
3) Yes. I am. It was still backwards then. More liberal than really darn illiberal is still illiberal.
4) I didn't say attack. I said "criticize" You are aware, I hope, that attack and criticize have different meanings in the English language. |
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nasigoreng
Joined: 14 May 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| nasigoreng wrote: |
| America is next. |
... if you mean immigrants in general and are not singling out Muslims, then perhaps there is some validity to your argument. |
Indeed I was referring to Latino immigration and the lack of integration seen by flying the Mexican flag at public schools and rallies, reciting the pledge of allegance in Spanish, and opposition to legislation designed to prevent illegal immigrants to vote.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110007760
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This isn't a deep-rooted cultural difference between the Old World and the New. It dates back all the way to, oh, the 1970s. If one wanted to allocate blame, one could argue that it's a product of the U.S. military presence, the American security guarantee that liberated European budgets: instead of having to spend money on guns, they could concentrate on butter, and buttering up the voters. If Washington's problem with Europe is that these are not serious allies, well, whose fault is that? Who, in the years after the Second World War, created NATO as a postmodern military alliance? The "free world," as the Americans called it, was a free ride for everyone else. And having been absolved from the primal responsibilities of nationhood, it's hardly surprising that European nations have little wish to reshoulder them. In essence, the lavish levels of public health care on the Continent are subsidized by the American taxpayer. And this long-term softening of large sections of the West makes them ill-suited to resisting a primal force like Islam.
.....................
In his book "The Empty Cradle," Philip Longman asks: "So where will the children of the future come from? Increasingly they will come from people who are at odds with the modern world. Such a trend, if sustained, could drive human culture off its current market-driven, individualistic, modernist course, gradually creating an anti-market culture dominated by fundamentalism--a new Dark Ages."
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
[
1) No. I refuse to. Worry about your own writing.
2) Read my post. Did I say "islam" or "muslims"? You are aware, I hope, that "islam" is an idea and "muslims" are people who follow the idea.
3) Yes. I am. It was still backwards then. More liberal than really darn illiberal is still illiberal.
4) I didn't say attack. I said "criticize" You are aware, I hope, that attack and criticize have different meanings in the English language. |
Would you capitalize Judaism? If so, then you should accord the same to all religions whether you believe in them or not, even if you disagree with the religion. I do not believe in Hinduism. There are some really bad ideas in Hinduism, but, of course, you are free do as you please.
1)All right, fair enough, it is good you do make a distinction that Muslims and Islam are not the same. Some don't.
2)There is a fine-line between attacking an idea or people. It is the way you criticize. I am sure you have heard of attack advertisements used in political campaigns.
3)I have a serious question for you, BJWD. I will preface it by saying I do like reading your posts, even if I disagree. You seek balance somehow.
4)Now here is the question: Don't you realize that there are different interpretations of Islam? I am sure you do know that.
5)Wouldn't it be more effective to criticize certain interpretations of Islam rather than throwing out the baby with the bath water, so to speak?
6)For better or for worse, Muslims cherish their religion no matter how they interpret it. We can't ignore that fact. How are you approaching that fact?
Thanks |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
But this is just the last straw on this site -- where do you guys crawl out from?????? |
have you ever been to Europe?
and thats an honest question: |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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J, why oh why did you ask him that. Now he is going to drone on about how he has "lived it" and been here and there while reading Coptic poetry all the while. For future reference, dd has been everywhere, done everything and read (maybe written) it all...
Ok, Adventurer,
Yes. I know that there are different interpretations of islam. All are Wrong in the same way that all christian interpretations are wrong. I don't care if the Malay ideas are slightly more humane that they Saudi ones. They are both fundamentally dangerous, like all ideas about bearded men in clouds. I am not going to pretend that they are not. My professors in university were relentless in their attacks against christianity (and rightfully so) but when it came to islam they stopped. They didn't extend the same level of respect to muslims in that they didn't think that they could handle the Truth. I respect muslims at least as much as I do christians.
But, more to the point, I actually have "moderate" muslim acquaintances. And I talk with them abut these things, and I'm fairly honest about what I believe and they are (I think) fairly honest with me as well. They are Europeans but ethnically from elsewhere. Anyhow, the things that come out of their mouths. My lord. They hate hate hate hate. And they fear women and sex. And they say the most vile things about gays. And they believe that Jews grind up kids and eat them. But they vote center-left and dress well. They look like they can assimilate. They can't. The basis of their world, islam, is such a fundamental prevision to human decency that they simply cannot hold decent opinions. They are "moderate" when compared to, say, hitler (but share the ideas of bin laden, so, maybe not..), but they are hate-filled thugs when compared to your typical non-muslim European.
My beliefs are from my experiences. I'm not pulling things out of thin air. The next 40 years of our lives are increasingly going to be spent dodging muslim violence. You may disagree with me now, but you most certainly will not in 10 years. I promise you that. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
There are differences between Muslims. The Muslims of North America are generally more moderate than the ones that exist in Britain. |
The only difference is that American muslims are more chilled because they're a real minority. Any countries where they are at critical mass- (a high enough % of the population)- then they smell blood and start getting aggressive.
Europe is way too liberal, they don't have a chance. They'll still be waffling intellectually and seeing the positive side even while they're being lined up to be shot.
All this cultural relativist, pacifist quasi- intellectual chit chat is just noise to muslims. And signals only one thing: weakness. Opportunity. Imagine a pack of dogs at the gates. Show weakness or deference, and they will bite you. if he lived in the council estates of Europe, someone like ddeubel would have been attacked a long time ago. But safe on planet korea, I suppose its possible to keep entertaining unrealistic 80's opinions almost indefinitely. |
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