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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:05 pm Post subject: Could Korea have modernized without Japan? |
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Before the Japanese occupation, that is.
I'm typing up a book written (I think) around 1898, and have just finished the second last chapter of the second volume, but I still haven't done the first volume because I'm not sure where it is. Maybe it's on Google Books somewhere.
One interesting part is the details of the reforms that took place between 1894 and 1897 in Seoul and the huge difference in the city between those three years. This was before Japanese occupation, but of course there was a huge amount of Japanese influence at that time too.
http://wiki.galbijim.com/Korea_and_Her_Neighbours:_Seoul_in_1897
There are still some typos there, but that's bound to happen in the 292 pages I've typed up so far.
Some bad parts:
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Old abuses cropped up daily, Ministers and other favourites sold offices unblushingly, and when specific charges were made against one of the King's chief favourites, the formal demand for his prosecution was met by making him Vice-Minister of Education! The King, freed from the control of the mutinous officers and usurping Cabinet of 8th October 1895, from the Queen's strong though often unscrupulous guidance, and from Japanese ascendency, and finding himself personally safe, has reverted to some of the worst traditions of his dynasty, and in spite of certain checks his edicts are again law and his will absolute. And it is a will at the mercy of any designing person who gets hold of him and can work upon his fears and his desire for money--of the ladies Pak and Om, who assisted him in his flight, and of favourites and syncophants low and many, who sell or bestow on members of their families offices they have little difficulty in obtaining from his pliable good nature. With an ample Civil List and large perquisites he is the most impecunious person in his dominions, for in common with all who occupy official positions in Korea he is surrounded by hosts of grasping parasites and hangers-on, for ever clamouring "Give, Give."
Men were thrown into prison without reason, some of the worst of the canaille were made Ministers of State, the murderer of Kim Ok-yun was appointed Master of Ceremony, and a convicted criminal, a man whose life has been one career of sordid crime, was made Minister of Justice. Consequent upon the surreptitious sale of offices, the seizure of revenue on its way to the Treasury, the appointment of men to office for a few days, to give them "rank" and to enable them to quarter on the public purse a host of impecunious relations and friends, and the custom among high officials of resigning office on the occasion of the smallest criticism, the administration is in a state of constant chaos, and the ofttimes well-meaning but always vacillating Sovereign, absolute without an idea of how to rule, the sport of favourites usually unworthy, who work upon his amiability, the prey of greedy parasites, and occasionally the tool of foreign adventurers, paralyses all good government by destroying the elements of permanence, and renders economy and financial reform difficult and spasmodic by consenting to schemes of reckless extravagange urged upon him by interested schemers. Never has the King made such havoc of reigning as since he regained his freedom under the roof of the Russian Embassy. |
And some good ones:
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Seoul in many parts, specially in the direction of the south and west gates, was literally not recognisable. Streets, with a minimum width of 55 feet, with deep stone-lined channels on both sides, bridged by stone slabs, had replaced the foul alleys, which were breeding-grounds of cholera. Narrow lanes had been widened, slimy runlets had been paved, roadways were no longer "free coups" for refuse, bicyclists "scorched" along broad, level streets, "express waggons" were looming in the near future, preparations were being made for the building of a French hotel in a fine situation, shops with glass fronts had been erected in numbers, an order forbidding the throwing of refuse into the streets was enforced,--refuse matter is now removed from the city by official scavengers, and Seoul, from having been the foulest is now on its way to being the cleanest city of the Far East!
This extraordinary metamorphosis was the work of four months, and is due to the energy and capacity of the Chief Commissioner of Customs, able seconded by the capable and intelligent Governor of the city, Ye Cha Yun, who had acquainted himself with the working of municipal affairs in Washington, and who with a rare modesty refused to take any credit to himself for the city improvements, saying that it was all due to Mr. McLeary Brown.
Old Seoul, with its festering alleys, its winter accumulations of every species of filth, its ankle-deep mud and its foulness, which lacked the redeeming element of picturesqueness, is being fast improved off the face of the earth. Yet it is chiefly a restoration, for the dark, narrow alleys which lingered on till the autumn of 1896 were but the result of gradual encroachments on broad roadways, the remains of the marginal channels of which were discovered.
What was done (and is being done) was to pull down the houses, compensate their owners, restore the old channels, and insist that the houses should be rebuilt at a uniform distance behind them. Along the fine broad streets thus restored tiled roofs have largely replaced thatch, in many casse the lower parts of the walls have been rebuilt of stone instead of wattle, and attempts at decoration and neatness are apparent in many of the house and shop fronts, while many of the smoke-holes, which vomit forth the smoke of the kang fires directly into the street, are now fitted with glittering chimneys, constructed out of American kerosene tins.
Some miles of broad streets are now available as promenades, and are largely taken advantage of; business looked much brisker than formerly, the shops made more display, and there was an air of greater prosperity, which has been taken advantage of by the Hong-Kong and Shangtai Bank, which has opened a branch at Chemulpo, and will probably ere long appear in the capital. |
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One of the most striking changes introduced into the Seoul of 1897 is the improvement in the prison, which is greatly owing to Mr. A. B. Stripling, formerly of the Shanghai Police, who, occupying a position as adviser to the Police Department, is carrying out prison reforms, originally suggested by the Japanese, in a humane and enlightened manner. Torture has disappeared from the great city prison, but there were dark rumours that some of the political prisoners, so lately as January 1897, were subjected to it elsewhere.
My experience of Eastern prisons, chiefly in Asia Minor, China, Persia, and a glimpse of a former prison in Seoul, have given me a vivid impression of the contrast presented by the present system. Surrounding a large quadrangle, with the chief gaoler's house in the centre, the rooms, not to be called cells, are large, airy, light, and well ventilated, with boarded floors covered with mats, and plenty of air space below. It is true that on the day I visited them some of the prisoners were shivering, and shivired more vigorously as an appeal to my compassion, but then the mercury was at 18 degrees F, and this is not a usual temperature. They have a large bathroom with a stove on the Japanese plan. Their diet consists of a pint of excellent soup twice a day, with a large bowl of rice, and those who go out to work get a third meal. This ample diet costs 1 1/2 d. per day. |
Last edited by mithridates on Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:31 am Post subject: |
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Some more interesting parts in the last chapter as I type them up:
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| I believe that Japan was thoroughly honest in her efforts; and though she lacked experience, and has oft-times rough and tactless, and aroused hostile feeling needlessly, that she had no intention to subjugate, but rather to play the ''role'' of the protector of Korea and the guarantor of her independence. |
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(page missing)
put a brake on the wheel! Korea, however, is incapable of standing alone, and unless so difficult a matter as a joint protectorate could be arranged, she must be under the tutelage of either Japan or Russia. |
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| ...Such, in brief outline, is the position of political affairs in Korea at the close of 1897. Her long and close political connection with China is severed; she has received from Japan a gift of independence which she knows not how to use; England, for reasons which may be guessed at, has withdrawn from any active participation in her affairs; the other European Powers have no interests to safeguard in that quarter; and her integrity and independence are at the mercy of the most patient and the most ambitious of Empires, whose interests in the Far East are conflicting, if not hostile. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:46 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps the title would be better served if it said "Could Korea Have Modernized Without the United States?" If not for the U.N. intervention force, the Korean Peninsula would've been the exclusive domain of Kim Il-sung and "juche."
Japan set up SOME modern infrastructure in Korea, but did so for itself and not for the benefit of its then colony. I'm sure Americans (save the conservative and crazy columnist David Horowitz) don't consider it a favor that they brought slaves from Africa, and that hundreds of years later, African-Americans are now the richest blacks on the planet.
Anyone who knows the industrialization histories of Japan and Korea would also know that Korea made it under conditions much worse than Japan's. |
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matthews_world
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| bridged by sne slabs |
What's sne?
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| which lingered on till the autumn |
Actually, I'd use "until" as the former is a bit too informal for a manuscript. |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Could Japan have modernized without the Portugese? |
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Guri Guy
Joined: 07 Sep 2003
Location: Bamboo Island
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: |
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Self interest or not, Japan helped modernize Korea. This is not to justify the annexation of Korea but Korea was a failed state at the time and desperately backwards.
Korea's population doubled under the Japanese occupation and life exectancies rose signifigantly. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: |
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Korea benefited from Japanese and American involvement. Of that, there can be no doubt. They also were disadvantaged by the Japanese involvement, though I can't decide if there have been any meaningful American-caused barriers to growth.
To the OP, yes, Korea could have developed without the Japanese involvement. But it would have taken longer and likely looked quite different. Without the Japanese colonial history would there still have been the Korean war? And without the Korean war would there still have been a "special relationship" with America and the very, Very preferential trade access the Koreans were granted? Without the preferential trade access, the ISI development model would have never existed in Korea and the Chaebol never would have existed. The export-led growth would not have happened and maybe a more agricultural economy would have developed...
The bigger question is this:
On balance, was the period of Japanese colonial rule good or bad for Korea? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Guri Guy wrote: |
| Self interest or not, Japan helped modernize Korea. This is not to justify the annexation of Korea but Korea was a failed state at the time and desperately backwards. |
Yes, and it was interesting to read direct accounts of just how backwards the gov't was at the time by somebody that was there for a number of years. The most interesting part was how poverty was actually a way of keeping out of sight for the average person, because anyone who made more than they needed to live would get the attention of the local official who usually demanded the money as a loan, and jail awaited those who didn't cough up. The currency itself was also really heavy so any significant amount of money would be more than a horse could carry, so the only way people could keep it away from officials was by burying it and letting the ground freeze over, then maybe digging it up later.
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| Some magistrates had a thousand of such retainers paid by this impoverished country. In a single province, there were at that time 44 district mandarins, with an average staff of 400 men each, whose sole duties were those of police and tax-collecting, their food alone, at the rate of two dollars per month, costing $392,400 a year. This army of 17,600 men, not receiving a "living wage," "squeezed" on its own account the peasant, who in Korea has neither rights nor privileges, except that of being the ultimate sponge. As an illustration of the methods of proceeding I give the case of a village in a southern province. Telegraph poles were required, and the Provincial Governor made a requisition of 100 cash on every house. The local magistrate increased it to 200, and his runners to 250, which was actually paid by the people, the runners getting 50 cash, the magistrate 100, and the Governor 100, a portion of which sum was expended on the object for which it was levied. An edict abolishing this attendance, and reducing the salaries of magistrates, had recently been promulgated. At Tok Chh�n, the ruin and decay of official buildings, and the filth and squalor of the private dwellings, could go no farther. |
The first chapter (actually the 19th because it's the second volume) had an interesting part about what happened to Koreans at the time that were allowed to work and profit without fear of corrupt officials because they had moved to Russia:
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The air of the men has undergone a subtle but real change, and the women, though they nominally keep up their habit of seclusion, have lost the hang-dog air which distinguishes them at home. The suspiciousness and indolent conceit, and the servility to his betters, which characterise the home-bred Korean, have very generally given place to an independence and manliness of manner rather British than Asiatic. The alacrity of movement is a change also, and has replaced the conceited swing of the yang-ban and the heartless lounge of the peasant. There are many chances for making money, and there is neither mandarin nor yang-ban to squeeze it out of the people when made, and comforts and a certain appearance of wealth no longer attract the rapacious attentions of officials, but are rather a credit to a man than a source of insecurity. All who work can be comfortable, and many of the farmers are rich and engage in trade, making and keeping extensive contracts.
Those Koreans who are not settled on lands, chiefly in the direction of the Chinese frontier, and who subsist by wood cutting and hauling, are less well off, and their hamlets have something of squalor about them.
In Korea I had learned to think of Koreans as the dregs of a race, and to regard their condition as hopeless, but in Primorsk I saw reason for considerably modifying my opinion. It must be borne in mind that these people, who have raised themselves into a prosperous farming class, and who get an excellent character for industry and good conduct alike from Russian police officials, Russian settlers, and military officers, were not exceptionally industrious and thrifty men. They were mostly starving folk who fled from famine, and their prosperity and general demeanour give me the hope that their countrymen in Korea, if they ever have an honest administration and protection for their earnings, may slowly develop into men. |
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jaganath69
Joined: 17 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Guri Guy wrote: |
Self interest or not, Japan helped modernize Korea. This is not to justify the annexation of Korea but Korea was a failed state at the time and desperately backwards.
Korea's population doubled under the Japanese occupation and life exectancies rose signifigantly. |
Failed state? The Chosun dynasty was grinding to a halt, but what do you base this premise on? |
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Yesterday
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Land of the Morning DongChim (Kancho)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| Could Japan have modernized without the Portugese? |
could kimchi and other modern "traditional-korean-food" have modernized without the Portugese?
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| Early forms of kimchi consisted mainly of salted greens, as chili peppers were unknown in Korea until the 16th century, when they were introduced by Portuguese traders coming from Japan. Traditionally, it was fermented in pots buried in the ground, to serve as a winter subsistence staple when fresh vegetables were not available. |
imagine all the "traditional-famous" korean dishes without chilli before the 16th century.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimchi |
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VanIslander
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Geoje, Hadong, Tongyeong,... now in a small coastal island town outside Gyeongsangnamdo!
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Would Japan have modernized without the nuclear destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
One dumb question deserves another.
What purpose does it serve? "Academic" questions are not neutral in terms of values, not for the last thirty-five years at least. |
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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| VanIslander wrote: |
Would Japan have modernized without the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
One dumb question deserves another. |
I'm not so sure, I've heard that in the 70s, the Japanese paid Korea a huge amount of money for compensation for the Comfort Women. Of course none of this money went to the women or their families but into roads and other infrastructure and into the Chaebols - Hyundai, Samsung, etc. Not my opinion, just repeating what I have heard from students. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Considering Japan is the largest foreign investor in Korea, and the extent to which Korea has copied Japan specifically, I would say the answer is essentially yes. Hypothesizing what could have happened without Japan ever being the picture seems kinda pointless to me. I would say though, that the U.S. obviously has had a huge influence too. I'd say economically Japan is the bigger influence though, by a far margin. |
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Demophobe
Joined: 17 May 2004
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, that's the one. I'm just typing it up from a pdf though, there's nothing to translate. Now I just need to find the pdf for part I (if it exists - but why scan part II and not part I?). Part II was sent to me by someone because I don't think Google Books lets you download in Korea:
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2006/10/06/get-your-old-books-about-korea-here
That last one is kind of interesting, it's 1000+ pages on how to travel in the Japanese Empire, but it was written in 1914. It's like old-school Lonely Planet. The section on Korea only makes up 60 or so pages so that's all I'll type up from that one. |
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