Korean Job Discussion Forums

[BobbyTeenager]

Dear Daves,

Been looking for a good school for the last four months now and I am seriously starting to become worried that I am too picky in my expectations. I have been in communication with three recruiters and one of them recently told me that �However, as a recruiter in this field for 6 years I can tell you that it will be most very much unlikely that you will find the school that will agree to change a contract like you requested, so it maybe only more wasting your time to further searching for a teaching job in Korea but again, it will be your choice to do so. � and wants to stop working with me to find a school because she believes I am a waste of time.

This comment was made after the recruiter read the changes (like adding in clauses detailing medical insurance, pension contributions, income tax, removal of illegal penalty clauses and other such modifications) that I made to a potential contract for an English Topia school.

I am quite disheartened as that I have been looking forward to coming to Korea for a while and I am getting impatient with all the waiting involved. All that I am looking for in a school is 1) Near Seoul 2) Not teaching Kindies 3) Acceptable contract. I�m getting tired of all my friends and family looking at me and asking, �Weren�t you suppose to be in Korea two months ago?�

I apologize if this post turned into a rant in the end but I needed to let off a little bit of the frustration that I am feeling at this moment. I just don�t know if I am doing the wrong thing or if my expectations have been warped by reading too much Daves.

So my questions are as follows:

Should I be listening to posters like alabamaman and Grotto when it comes to contract modifications? Am I asking these schools unreasonable modifications to these contracts and have too high of expectations?

Who and where are the good recruiters?

Where can I find the good schools that don�t require a thousand modifications to their contracts?

What can I do to find a good position in South Korea?

Thanks,
Bobby

[bosintang]

[Lizara]

I agree with bosintang. Grotto gives great advice about contracts, but if I were to hang around waiting to find a school that agreed to all of those demands, I'd probably still be unemployed. I guess it depends on what you can put up with; make sure you don't agree to anything that's going to make you miserable all year, and be willing to make some concessions on the things that are less important.

[Son Deureo!]

[Smee]

I agree with the above poster's guidelines.

Have you looked at the ads posted by ATC? I'm not shilling for them or anything, but they usually have 30 or so hagwon positions. None of them meet your specifications? Send them an email---hell, send as many recruiters emails as possible---with your basic specifications.

-Seoul/Gyeonggi (near a subway stop)
-2.0 million per month
-10 vacation days per year (at least, although it seems that there are always restrictions as to when you can take them . . . double check with other people at the school)
-Monday through Friday, no kindies . . . honestly, that shouldn't be hard to find.
-health insurance, pension, overtime, etc., all ought to be givens.
-non-shared housing.

I can't speak for all hagwon, but I know my last one put in a "runners' insurance clause," so to speak, which deducted money the first six months, to be paid after six months. That sucks, and it's probably not negotiable. I don't know if you'll have any luck telling a recruiter "no penalty clauses, please," so it's best to ask to see as many contracts as possible, and see which one fits you best. As others have said, if it's your first year, you've got little leverage. But that doesn't mean you can't find something that works for you. After all, your year in Korea is what you make it, so please don't play soothsayer with your contract.

[alas_peregrinas]

I agree with what people are saying too - look for the *basics* to be covered in a contract so that you're not in a bad situation. But honestly I've found with hagwon bosses you do a lot of negotiation verbally.

Basics like hours, pay, housing, airfare, insurance etc.. need to be set in stone, but trying to squabble over every detail and getting it written down is just going to stop any progress *especially* through a recruiter.

My advice is to not use recruiters AT ALL. They get paid to place people, that's it. Most don't know and don't care what kind of schools they are putting people in. They have no real negotiating power, trying to make changes gets bounced around between you, them, and the school and takes way too long. So cut out the middle man.

Browse through the job postings and find schools who have posted their own ads, and deal directly through them. If they're doing it themselves, it's some indication of how invested they are in having good teachers. The whole process goes faster and you're often dealing with one of their other foreign teachers anyway, so there's no language gap (or crevasse) of understanding. Plus, the teacher can give you a better inside look at how the school works and what you need to watch out for (maybe through them you can see what stipulations you need to fight for in the contract)

[danistx]

Where are all the people who insist on 2.5 million minimum for pay? Or, how about those who say 2.2 million is the most recent starting pay for newbies? According to them 2 million is crap pay.

[Homer]

Boshingtan has it right.

Also, Son Deuro's list is accurate and is what you should focus on.

Advice you get here on contracts and how to re-write them should be taken with a gigantic grain of salt. You should always ask yourself where the advice is coming from and what motived this advice.

Also, a lot of the proposed re-writes in contracts as suggested on this forum will make you impossible to hire for most schools. Furthermore, comments on the legality of certain clauses are dangerous to rely on as they might not be illegal at all. Then, if you call them such and employer will simply see you as a trouble maker and move on. Most employers would be right to do so, even the good ones!

So, be careful what you ask for and how as it might leave you holding an empty bag.

As always, your only reliable source of information on a job is and should be Teachers currently working at the school or former teachers of that school. They can comment accurately on conditions at the school.

As for legal issues, only a fool would rely on an anonymous web-forum to make a decision concerning the legality of a contractual clause!

Ask an expert if you are really anxious about certain clauses...or..again...ask the teachers at the school just what that clause has meant for them as employees....

Finally

[butlerian]

Ignore the contract. In Korea, and especially in hagwons, it's not important. In a bad school, expect to be screwed over and for ever point in your contract to be highlighted, but in a good school expect that you won't have as many duties etc as your contract indicates.

The reality is that the only way to give yourself a fighting chance of getting a good hagwon job is to come to Korea first and look for a job while you're here. The contract isn't nearly as important as talking to other teachers at the school and getting an idea of what the place is actually like.

If you want to be taken seriously, and perhaps want to start on a teaching career, the public route is the way to go. If you're only here for the experience, come here first, get a good hagwon job after you've visited a few and talking to other Westerners, and you'll be fine.

[huffdaddy]

[ttompatz]

[Homer]

[Son Deureo!]

[Homer]

Good point Son Deuro....

But is that really a rule to follow?

[Grotto]

Do I think you would actually get a school to remove all the illegal clauses? No, I dont!

The only reason I do what I do is, so you will go into the situation without any illusions. Many people arrive in Korea and get pissed off once they figure out how badly they are being ripped off.

That whole malarky about how the contract doesnt matter bullcrap is exactly that, BULLCRAP! Koreans are very quick to point out clauses that work against you in any contract.....they are especially broad in their generalizations......which is why you want exacts.

Set schedule, Mon-Fri, 6 hours a day at the school, single accomodations, an appropriate tax rate(not necessarily written into your contract but they should be following your monthly withholding tax rate....which is much less than 3 or 5%!) You should get pension and medical which are required by law.

Will you ever find a perfect contract? Not likely. Find something that you can live with.