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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:02 am Post subject: One million plus secular Turks protest government |
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Thousands of Turks protest government By BENJAMIN HARVEY, Associated Press Writer
ISTANBUL, Turkey - More than 100,000 secular Turks gathered in Istanbul Sunday, chanting slogans against the pro-Islamic government that has faced severe criticism from the country's powerful military.
It was the second large demonstration against the government in just two weeks and shows a deepening division between secular and Islamist camps in Turkish society. More than 300,000 secular Turks staged a similar rally in Ankara two weeks ago.
"Turkey is secular and will remain secular," shouted thousands of flag-waving protesters, who traveled to Istanbul from across the country overnight.
The demonstrators sang nationalist songs and demanded the resignation of the government, calling Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan a "traitor."
The ruling party, however, has supported religious schools and tried to lift the ban on Islamic head scarves in public offices and schools. Secularists are also uncomfortable with the idea of Gul's wife, Hayrunisa, being in the presidential palace because she wears the traditional Muslim head scarf.
"We don't want a covered woman in Ataturk's presidential palace," said Ayse Bari, a 67-year-old homemaker. "We want civilized, modern people there."
The election has contributed to a sense of polarization in a country that has enjoyed relative economic and political stability for years and is seeking entry into the European Union. The EU has been pressing Turkey to curb the influence of its armed forces in politics.
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070429/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_demonstration
Last edited by Adventurer on Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Meanwhile, in a country nearby:
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No coiffures, no plucks and definitely no make-up
FREDRIK DAHL
Reuters
April 29, 2007 at 12:08 PM EDT
TEHRAN � Iranian police have warned barbers against offering Western-style hair cuts or plucking the eyebrows of their male customers, Iranian media said on Sunday.
The report by a reformist daily, later confirmed by an Iranian news agency, appeared to be another sign of the authorities cracking down on clothing and other fashion deemed to be against Islamic values.
�Western hair styles ... have been banned,� the newspaper Etemad said in a front page headline.
It came a week after police launched a crackdown against the growing numbers of young women testing the limits of the law with shorter, brighter and skimpier clothing ahead of the summer months.
Under Iran's Islamic Sharia law, imposed after the 1979 revolution, women are obliged to cover their hair and wear long, loose-fitting clothes to disguise their figures.
Violators can receive lashes, fines and imprisonment.
The student news agency ISNA quoted a police statement as saying: �In an official order to barber shops, they have been warned to avoid using Western hair styles and doing men's eyebrows.�
Iranian young men have in recent years started paying more attention to the way they look and dress, especially in affluent parts of the capital Tehran. Spiked up hair, by using gel, is known as the Khorusi (Rooster) style and some also use make-up.
Several hairdressers for men in Tehran offer cuts in the style of Hollywood movie stars and other Western celebrities. Clients can also have their eyebrows plucked.
The head of the barbers' union, Mohammad Eftekharifard, said police had instructed it to �exercise specific regulations in barber shops that work under its supervision.�
Barbers who do not follow these rules might be closed down for a month and even lose their permits to operate, Etemad quoted him as saying.
�Currently some barber shops apply make-up and use (hair) styles that are in line with those in European countries and America,� Mr. Eftekharifard said.
He added: �An official order has been sent to the union ... not to apply make-up on men's faces (or) do eyebrows ... and hence the barbers are not allowed to do these things.�
Since hard line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won the presidency in 2005 promising a return to the values of the revolution, hardliners have pressed for tighter controls on what they consider immoral behaviour.
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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Thousands? Ummmm ... well ... yah ... like a thousand thousand.
YAHOO is reporting ONE MILLION.
Say, this reminds me, isn't Turkey one of the newest happy members of the EU ... "family"? |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: |
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Here's a link to some sensible analysis of the situation by the NYTimes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/world/europe/30turkey.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin
Here's some good quotes from Metin Heper, as secular a guy as you'd want to meet (and I know because I know him), about the situation:
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The message of secularist protesters, said Metin Heper, a professor at Bilkent University in Ankara, was this: �We are uncomfortable with the lifestyles of these people.�
�They fear these people, but these fears are groundless,� he said. �Gradually, they will see that these people are no different from themselves.�
Prejudices among secular Turks have their roots in Turkey�s education system, Mr. Heper said. �Education here teaches that if you are a practicing Muslim, you are an ignorant person who will bring the country back to the Middle Ages,� he said. |
Basically, the protestors represent the hardcore of the Kemalist movement who are resentful and worried over potential loss of privilege. They fail to recognize the extent to which they've made Kemalism a fiundamentalist religion. And, as the artlcle points out, their current leaders have no real solutions to Turkey's problems. The AK party, for what it's worth, has overseen more economic expansion and political liberalization than any party since the 1930s.
Abdullah Gul will become President, one way or another (if the Constitutional Court forces new elections, look for AK to increase its majority).. His wife will wear a headscarf in the Presidential Palace. And the sun will come up tomorrow. That's pretty much it.
If the Turks aren't happy with it, there are elections coming up for the government later this year and they can punish AK by taking away their majority and putting in place a government that can override a Presidential veto. And in seven years, someone else can be chosen as President. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:35 am Post subject: |
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Last Updated: Monday, 30 April 2007, 10:14 GMT 11:14 UK
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Turkish poll crisis goes to court
Istanbul saw a massive show of support for secular institutions
Turkey's disputed election of a new president - pitting secularists against the ruling Islamist-rooted AK party - has gone to the constitutional court.
The court is now examining a petition from the opposition to cancel the election of a new president.
As many as one million people marched through Istanbul on Sunday, opposing presidential candidate Abdullah Gul.
Turkey's currency has tumbled amid fears the army may block the election of Mr Gul, the foreign minister.
Mr Gul says there is no question of him withdrawing from the presidential election.
His wife wears the Islamic headscarf, which remains highly controversial in Turkey. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
Here's a link to some sensible analysis of the situation by the NYTimes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/world/europe/30turkey.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin
Here's some good quotes from Metin Heper, as secular a guy as you'd want to meet (and I know because I know him), about the situation:
| Quote: |
The message of secularist protesters, said Metin Heper, a professor at Bilkent University in Ankara, was this: �We are uncomfortable with the lifestyles of these people.�
�They fear these people, but these fears are groundless,� he said. �Gradually, they will see that these people are no different from themselves.�
Prejudices among secular Turks have their roots in Turkey�s education system, Mr. Heper said. �Education here teaches that if you are a practicing Muslim, you are an ignorant person who will bring the country back to the Middle Ages,� he said. |
Basically, the protestors represent the hardcore of the Kemalist movement who are resentful and worried over potential loss of privilege. They fail to recognize the extent to which they've made Kemalism a fiundamentalist religion. And, as the artlcle points out, their current leaders have no real solutions to Turkey's problems. The AK party, for what it's worth, has overseen more economic expansion and political liberalization than any party since the 1930s.
Abdullah Gul will become President, one way or another (if the Constitutional Court forces new elections, look for AK to increase its majority).. His wife will wear a headscarf in the Presidential Palace. And the sun will come up tomorrow. That's pretty much it.
If the Turks aren't happy with it, there are elections coming up for the government later this year and they can punish AK by taking away their majority and putting in place a government that can override a Presidential veto. And in seven years, someone else can be chosen as President. |
The question is can the secularists in an election have enough seats for a more secular candidate? I have serious doubts about that, but I could be wrong. Many Turks have wives who wear a head scarf. The Turks have clearly the most secular people in the Middle East, but they are perhaps as conservatives as the Poles.
I am not so against his wife wearing a head scarf but rather trying to criminalize adultery which his party tried to do in the past. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| The question is can the secularists in an election have enough seats for a more secular candidate? I have serious doubts about that, but I could be wrong. Many Turks have wives who wear a head scarf. The Turks have clearly the most secular people in the Middle East, but they are perhaps as conservatives as the Poles. |
They can't, which was the point of my second to last and last paragraphs. Seriously, if Erdogan is forced to call new elections by the court, the secular parties are going to be punished by the populace; AK will increase its vote total, possibly enough to have the 2/3 majority they would need to change the constitution.
The secularists aren't helped by the fact that the leader of the opposition comes across as a sleazy, self-interested, political weather vane. Truly, Deniz Baykal is a gift to AK. The other potential opposition leader, Erkan Mumcu, suffers from his youth and the fact that he joined AK before the last election in order to stay in power when it became clear that his party, ANAP, was goingg to be crushed in the elections. (He has since rejoined a revived ANAP as party leader.) Turkey's tradittional conservative party, True Path, has never recovered from the leadership of (as Steven Kinzer called her, "the utterly amoral") Tansu Ciller.
You're correct that the population is basically conservative. The only place carried by the opposition in the last election were the districts around Izmir, infidel Izmir. The southeast went HADEP (the Kurdish party), and every other place, including Ankara and Istanbul, went AK.
The secularists desperately need new leadership, and I hope that a thorough thrashing in the next election brings it to them. This is their time in the wilderness. They need badly to reinvent themselves in ways that can attract the people who are moderately religious, but more interested in modernization and economic liberalism. Until they do this, they will get their butts kicked.
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I am not so against his wife wearing a head scarf but rather trying to criminalize adultery which his party tried to do in the past. |
Erdogan is a clever politician. I suspect he knew what the reaction would be and that he would have to bacck down on that. But it was a sop to the religious wing of his party at a time when he couldn't give them what they wanted - an end to the headscarf ban. (NB: The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that the headscarf ban is legal.)
Despite its large majority, AK has been constrained in various ways over the past five years. Beyond there being a staunch Kemalist president, they have also had to guard against both the nationalists and ANAP taking some of their voters. AK is a coalition party. For example, I suspect that Erdogan would like to be even more liberal than he has been to the minorities in Turkey, but the nationalists prevent this with their reactions. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:26 am Post subject: |
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Last Updated: Tuesday, 1 May 2007, 16:43 GMT 17:43 UK
E-mail this to a friend Printable version
Turkey's presidency vote annulled
The court ruled there was not a quorum for the vote
The constitutional court in Turkey has annulled last Friday's parliamentary vote to elect a new president.
The only candidate, Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul, failed to win the required majority after a boycott by secularist opposition parties.
The parties, which accuse Mr Gul of a hidden Islamist agenda, asked the court to rule that there was no quorum.
The government says despite the ruling it will try to achieve a quorum with a new vote on Wednesday.
Army concern
The constitutional court backed the opposition's argument that a quorum of two-thirds of the 550 lawmakers was not present for Friday's vote. Its ruling cannot be appealed.
A total of 361 lawmakers voted - 357 for Mr Gul - but 367 were needed to make a quorum.
Abdullah Gul was just short of the required majority
Government spokesman Cemil Cicek said the ruling AK party would propose its candidate again on Wednesday.
Mr Cicek also said the government was prepared to meet an opposition call for an early general election provided parliament agreed to lower the age limit for MPs to 25.
AK believes this will boost its electoral chances.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6612831.stm |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Its a beautiful quote. And oh so true. Turks know what theyve got and you can see them rising up against the darkness, mental backwardness that head scarves and Ismaofascism represent. I wish them luck. Its funny about the EU, the military in Turkey is one of the only things stopping that country from mutating from a secular democracy to backwards barbarism of the muslim world. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Thousands? Ummmm ... well ... yah ... like a thousand thousand.
YAHOO is reporting ONE MILLION.
Say, this reminds me, isn't Turkey one of the newest happy members of the EU ... "family"? |
What is this, did I wake up in 2050? See, that I said before you is true, you have no grasp of reality.
TURKEY IS NOT AN EU MEMBER. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| If Gul is elected the army should step in, arrest him and execute him. Turkey must remain secular. Not only is this good for Turkey, it is also good for Europe. Having another Islamist state in Europe would be a terrible outcome. Theres already one, Albania and the European liberal commies are thinking of stealing land from Serbia to create yet another jihadist state. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Abdullah Gul will become President, one way or another (if the Constitutional Court forces new elections, look for AK to increase its majority).. His wife will wear a headscarf in the Presidential Palace. And the sun will come up tomorrow. That's pretty much it. |
I think this is pretty much bang on. I would pose the question, "why and to whose advantage is it, to make this a religious issue?" . For the secularists, the position should be that people have freedom of expression PERIOD. Whether you interpret that as religious or not , doesn't matter. for the Muslim hard core, the position should be that we worship outside of the halls of government and university and that we be free to do so.......
Bringing religion into politics is just a political bomb. It is used as a tool and can blow up in someone's face or be hurled. We will have to wait and see...
DD
PS> I agree with the N.Y. Time's author, that so much of this, is "elitism" and "prejudice". Trying to make others seem less while making yourself seem so righteous.....both sides are doing it and should stop. |
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postfundie
Joined: 28 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Bringing religion into politics is just a political bomb. It is used as a tool and can blow up in someone's face or be hurled. We will have to wait and see... |
Don't demonize Islam
Last edited by postfundie on Wed May 02, 2007 6:04 am; edited 4 times in total |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Abdullah Gul will become President, one way or another (if the Constitutional Court forces new elections, look for AK to increase its majority).. His wife will wear a headscarf in the Presidential Palace. And the sun will come up tomorrow. That's pretty much it. |
I think this is pretty much bang on. I would pose the question, "why and to whose advantage is it, to make this a religious issue?" . For the secularists, the position should be that people have freedom of expression PERIOD. Whether you interpret that as religious or not , doesn't matter. for the Muslim hard core, the position should be that we worship outside of the halls of government and university and that we be free to do so.......
Bringing religion into politics is just a political bomb. It is used as a tool and can blow up in someone's face or be hurled. We will have to wait and see...
DD
PS> I agree with the N.Y. Time's author, that so much of this, is "elitism" and "prejudice". Trying to make others seem less while making yourself seem so righteous.....both sides are doing it and should stop. |
I think that the current government has passed a lot of reforms including abolishing the death penalty, moving slightly on Kurdish cultural rights, trying to reason with the Greek Cypriots, and they scrapped this anti-women law. However, trying to criminalize adultery and trying to restrict alcohol were dumb moves. I am glad the court ruled that a quorum is needed. I would want the president elected by a majority, not a minority, but the AK may be able to secure a majority in the elections and try to put Gul forward as a candidate, but that would be provocative. I am not sure if it is so objectionable that Gul has a wife who wears the head scarf. After all, so many Turkish women wear it. Yes, it has one of the largest secular populations in a Muslim country if not the largest. Well, actually, Albania is probably more liberal. |
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