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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: Grammar question |
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How do you explain to a student the reason why the following is wrong:
"There are a balloon and a parachute?" I mean there are two subjects. I know it is supposed to be "There is a balloon and a parachute."
I am not a grammar expert. I take an interest in it, though.
I am going to have to find me a great grammar book. Any recommendations. I bought a used one at "What the Book", but I didn't find it was that helpful. I want to be able to know the rules backwards and forwards. I know a lot, obviously, since I studied it in school and also took French grammar. What is the best book out there? I'd order it. I looked at a ton of websites to find the explanation for the above question, but I couldn't find one anywhere. I even got bored and took those on-line grammar tests and did excellent, but they are too easy. English grammar is pretty complicated. |
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Delirium's Brother
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Look for a book called, "Doing Grammer." This little unassuming book has saved my life many times.
ps. It's a compound NP subject/object, not a plural subject... that's why the verb agreement is singular. And it has to do with the deep structure of the sentence, which I won't explain unless you really want it. Hint: there originally were two underlying sentences; and a transformation. (Cool, I just used the sentence frame by accident; here it's plural; because there was only one underlying sentence in this case with no transformation.)
I could always be wrong, but I don't thinks so.
Last edited by Delirium's Brother on Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:29 am; edited 4 times in total |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| I think it's because the first subject is singular. That's easy enough to explain anyway, even if the real reason is more complicated. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: |
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| Delirium's Brother wrote: |
Look for a book called, "Doing Grammer." This little unassuming book has saved my life many times.
ps. It's a compound NP subject/object, not a plural subject... that's why the verb agreement is singular. And it has to do with the deep structure of the sentence, which I won't explain unless you really want it.
I could always be wrong, but I don't thinks so. |
I just asked the "What the Book" fellow via e-mail if he could get me that book called "The Grammar Bible". It is quite big. I bought a small book, and it just didn't seem to satisfy me. It would be cool if some of us foreigners actually met to sharpen our skills. I am not a nerd, but I think being great at grammar, rather than just good, would help you get a good GMAT score. I don't know about the LSAT.
Last edited by Adventurer on Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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huck
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:31 am Post subject: |
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Wouldn't it be a compound object?
Because we can say "A cat and a dog are playing." That would be a compound subject.
I think it's like the other poster said...They joined two sentences into a compound sentence, but that doesn't change the original meaning/intention of the sentence. |
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Delirium's Brother
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| My original theory might actually be wrong. |
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SeoulFinn
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: 1h from Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Grammar question |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
How do you explain to a student the reason why the following is wrong:
"There are a balloon and a parachute?" I mean there are two subjects. I know it is supposed to be "There is a balloon and a parachute."
I am not a grammar expert. I take an interest in it, though. |
This is coming from the mouth of my gf who teaches SAT writing.
"There are a balloon and a parachute."
This sentence is correct because a balloon and a parachute are the subjects of the sentence. It is called a subject-verb reverse sentence, which means the original sentence is "A balloon and a parachute are there."
Another example:
1) Along the coast lies a beautiful condominium.
2) Along the coast lie a lighthouse and a yacht club.
In those two examples, the subject is not "the cost" but a singular noun in the first sentence and plural nouns in the second one. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: Re: Grammar question |
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| SeoulFinn wrote: |
This is coming from the mouth of my gf who teaches SAT writing.
"There are a balloon and a parachute."
This sentence is correct because a balloon and a parachute are the subjects of the sentence. It is called a subject-verb reverse sentence, which means the original sentence is "A balloon and a parachute are there."
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Doesn't sound or read right to me, but I'm no expert. I was teaching this recently and following a pretty good textbook on writing it was explained, if the first subject is singular, use "is"....
In speaking I wouldn't care either way, but in academic writing or test-taking it could matter. In speaking we often say "There's" incorrectly, but who cares? "There's at least 20 reasons why we do that."
Maybe either way is OK in real usage, not for those peaky tests though.
"There's a man and his dog."
"There are a man and his dog."
Nah, strike that, the first one sounds better to me. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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I think it's wrong because the second "there is" in the sentence is embedded: "there is a balloon and [there is] a parachute".
I think in the case of "a balloon and a parachute are there", the "there" functions as a pronoun, so it's different from "there is" beginning a sentence. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| This kind of thing would never make you lose points on an essay.. That's the more valuable lesson to teach students. Get them to design logical, clearly structured essays, and they'll be golden. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| pastis wrote: |
I think it's wrong because the second "there is" in the sentence is embedded: "there is a balloon and [there is] a parachute".
I think in the case of "a balloon and a parachute are there", the "there" functions as a pronoun, so it's different from "there is" beginning a sentence. |
As far as I know, what you say above is true. I understand we write "Are Lewis and Andre coming to the show", and "There are two people present", but I think what throws us off is the separation with the conjunction and. I would write there is a ballon and a parachute and think of it as someone else said "There is a ballon and there is a parachute." Of course, we have to say "A balloon and a parachute are there". We wouldn't have a problem with that. |
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SeoulFinn
Joined: 27 Feb 2006
Location: 1h from Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Dec 23, 2006 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar question |
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NOTICE: None of the following is coming from my mouth, as my gf felt compelled to reply to your postings. -SeoulFinn
To "jajdude"
Everybody agrees that spoken language and written language are different. As you said, who cares whether a person omits a subject or confuses an adjective and an adverb when he is speaking? However, I think it is important in writing and I feel responsible to teach correct usages to my students. Furthermore, "there are" is correct and "there is" is "a kind of" broken language.
To "pastis"
| Quote: |
| I think in the case of "a balloon and a parachute are there", the "there" functions as a pronoun, so it's different from "there is" beginning a sentence. |
"there" does not function as a pronoun in this case. The sentence only changes the order. Subject-verb reversing is used for emphasis or simply for better understanding. I think all these confusions are the reasons the College Board decided to change the optional SAT II Writing to a compulsory SAT subject. If still confused, you can check many similar questions about subject-verb agreement in the SAT Writing section, which actually helped me a lot to understand grammar. |
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jajdude
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
| This kind of thing would never make you lose points on an essay.. That's the more valuable lesson to teach students. Get them to design logical, clearly structured essays, and they'll be golden. |
True, but I bet they might lose a point or two on one of those silly tests designed to trip you up.
IS "there" an adverb all the time, or can it function otherwise sometimes? |
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stevenpa
Joined: 24 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| How do you explain to a student the reason why the following is wrong: "There are a balloon and a parachute?" |
First, it's not wrong, as others have already said. These types of constructions are called "existential sentences", as in, "A balloon and a parachute exist". Existential sentences in English are usually headed by "there", which functions grammatically as a pronoun.
Dictionary.com says:
"The verb following there is singular or plural according to the number of the subject that follows the verb: There is a message for you. There are patients in the waiting room. With compound subjects in which all the coordinate words are singular, a singular verb often occurs, although the plural may also be used: There was (or were) a horse and a cow in the pasture. When a compound subject contains both singular and plural words, the verb usually agrees with the subject closest to the verb, although a plural verb sometimes occurs regardless, especially if the compound has more than two elements: There were staff meetings and a press conference daily. There was (or were) a glass, two plates, two cups, and a teapot on the shelf."
| Quote: |
"There are a balloon and a parachute."
This sentence is correct because a balloon and a parachute are the subjects of the sentence. It is called a subject-verb reverse sentence, which means the original sentence is "A balloon and a parachute are there." |
Yes, the sentence is correct, but the explanation isn't. Where did your girlfriend learn "subject-verb reverse sentence" and "subject verb reversing"? I just Googled them both and got nothing. Is she talking about subject-auxiliary verb inversion, like in questions? If you have a source, I'd be interested to see it. While inversion does exist in English (ex. questions: there is / is there?), the phenomenon we are talking about is referred to in syntax as "there insertion", so I'm fairly certain that nothing is being reversed here though I'm willing to be proven incorrect.
Also, IMHO, the sentence does not mean "A balloon and a parachute are there."
Here, "there" is an adverb, as in "over there" or the actual physical location of something. I don't believe the sentence talks about the *existence* of the balloon and parachute although it's an interesting thought and I'm curious what others think. As a possible explanation (out on a limb here), it could be that "there" needs to be clause initial (i.e. the S in SVO) in order to function as a "dummy subject" in an existential sentence. To be honest, we'd need the knowledge of someone more experienced with syntax, or at least someone with some time to put together some sample sentences that might (dis)prove my idea. Outside of what "feels" right, syntax actually explains (or attempts to explain) this kind of stuff.
| Quote: |
| Everybody agrees that spoken language and written language are different. As you said, who cares whether a person omits a subject or confuses an adjective and an adverb when he is speaking? However, I think it is important in writing and I feel responsible to teach correct usages to my students. Furthermore, "there are" is correct and "there is" is "a kind of" broken language. |
"There are a balloon and a parachute in the sky," but not, "There is..."
--> "Correct", prescriptivist (as opposed to descriptivist) account of the sentence's grammaticality; often taught (incorrectly, IMHO) by grammar teachers who assume that a structure which falls within a grammatical gray area can be explained in black and white.
"There's a balloon and a parachute in the sky."
--> Widely accepted sentence, especially in spoken English, but it's not broken English. Native speakers use and accept this without a passing thought most of the time. Indeed, "'there is' is also common before plural subjects in informal speech" (Practical English Usage, Michael Swan, 1980, p.563). That was 1980; perhaps the next generation of speakers will accept this structure as formal speech. Already I doubt a professor would raise an eyebrow at either usage. And, hey, look at the word "hopefully" and how prescriptivists say it should(n't) be used. Weird, to say the least by today's common usage.
Further, I think we are doing students a disservice by telling them that one way is correct and the other was is incorrect when clearly both are used. If nothing else it perpetuates the obscurity of language (i.e. Why does my teacher tell me this is wrong when I hear it every day from native speakers?) A more effective approach would be to show students how language is actually *used*, and not how it is *prescribed*.
Last edited by stevenpa on Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Dec 24, 2006 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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There is a balloon and ( there is ) a parachute.
I can`t believe "there are" is correct. It feels completely wrong which is usually a strong sign that it is. We don`t have to know all the rules as native speakers to feel what is wrong. I`ll have to do some more reading on this, but I`m not at all convinced by "the girlfriend". |
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