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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Uncle Sam not happy with how government handled execution |
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Rush to Hang Hussein Was Questioned
By JOHN F. BURNS and MARC SANTORA
BAGHDAD, Dec. 31 � With his plain pine coffin strapped into an American military helicopter for a predawn journey across the desert, Saddam Hussein, the executed dictator who built his legend with defiance of America, completed a turbulent passage into history on Sunday.
Like the helicopter trip, just about everything in the 48 hours that began with Mr. Hussein�s being taken to his execution from his cell in an American military detention center in the postmidnight chill of Saturday had a surreal and even cinematic quality. Part of it was that the Americans, who turned him into a pariah and drove him from power, proved to be his unlikely benefactors in the face of new Iraqi rulers who seemed bent on turning the execution and its aftermath into a new nightmare.
The 110-mile journey aboard a Black Hawk helicopter carried Mr. Hussein�s body to an American military base north of Tikrit, Camp Speicher, named for an American Navy pilot lost over Iraq in the first hours of the Persian Gulf war in 1991. From there, an Iraqi convoy carried him to Awja, the seedy town beside the Tigris River that Mr. Hussein, in the chandeliered palaces that became his habitat as ruler, spoke of as emblematic of the miseries of his lonely and impoverished youth.
The American role extended beyond providing the helicopter that carried Mr. Hussein home. Iraqi and American officials who have discussed the intrigue and confusion that preceded the decision late on Friday to rush Mr. Hussein to the gallows have said that it was the Americans who questioned the political wisdom � and justice � of expediting the execution, in ways that required Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki to override constitutional and religious precepts that seemed to give Mr. Hussein the prospect of a more dignified passage to his end.
He said he attended a late-night dinner at the prime minister�s office at which American officers and Mr. Maliki�s officials debated the issue.
One of the officials who attended described the meeting this way: �The Iraqis seemed quite frustrated, saying, �Who is going to execute him, anyway, you or us?� The Americans replied by saying that obviously, it was the Iraqis who would carry out the hanging. So the Iraqis said, �This is our problem and we will handle the consequences. If there is any damage done, it is we who will be damaged, not you.� �
http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/nyt754.html |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: Uncle Sam not happy with how government handled executio |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
Rush to Hang Hussein Was Questioned
By JOHN F. BURNS and MARC SANTORA
BAGHDAD, Dec. 31 � With his plain pine coffin strapped into an American military helicopter for a predawn journey across the desert, Saddam Hussein, the executed dictator who built his legend with defiance of America, completed a turbulent passage into history on Sunday.
Like the helicopter trip, just about everything in the 48 hours that began with Mr. Hussein�s being taken to his execution from his cell in an American military detention center in the postmidnight chill of Saturday had a surreal and even cinematic quality. Part of it was that the Americans, who turned him into a pariah and drove him from power, proved to be his unlikely benefactors in the face of new Iraqi rulers who seemed bent on turning the execution and its aftermath into a new nightmare.
The 110-mile journey aboard a Black Hawk helicopter carried Mr. Hussein�s body to an American military base north of Tikrit, Camp Speicher, named for an American Navy pilot lost over Iraq in the first hours of the Persian Gulf war in 1991. From there, an Iraqi convoy carried him to Awja, the seedy town beside the Tigris River that Mr. Hussein, in the chandeliered palaces that became his habitat as ruler, spoke of as emblematic of the miseries of his lonely and impoverished youth.
The American role extended beyond providing the helicopter that carried Mr. Hussein home. Iraqi and American officials who have discussed the intrigue and confusion that preceded the decision late on Friday to rush Mr. Hussein to the gallows have said that it was the Americans who questioned the political wisdom � and justice � of expediting the execution, in ways that required Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki to override constitutional and religious precepts that seemed to give Mr. Hussein the prospect of a more dignified passage to his end.
He said he attended a late-night dinner at the prime minister�s office at which American officers and Mr. Maliki�s officials debated the issue.
One of the officials who attended described the meeting this way: �The Iraqis seemed quite frustrated, saying, �Who is going to execute him, anyway, you or us?� The Americans replied by saying that obviously, it was the Iraqis who would carry out the hanging. So the Iraqis said, �This is our problem and we will handle the consequences. If there is any damage done, it is we who will be damaged, not you.� �
http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/nyt754.html |
Yeah, well...I doubt that. As much as I think the US is responsible for the trouble it is getting in Iraq (they didn't have to start the war as Saddam wasn't a real threat to the US), they will get blamed for whatever mess the Iraqi government creates eventhough it was democratically elected and essentially controled by al-Sadr since he hold the swing votes that the minority government desperately needs. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Uncle Sam not happy with how government handled executio |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
Yeah, well...I doubt that. As much as I think the US is responsible for the trouble it is getting in Iraq (they didn't have to start the war as Saddam wasn't a real threat to the US), they will get blamed for whatever mess the Iraqi government creates eventhough it was democratically elected and essentially controled by al-Sadr since he hold the swing votes that the minority government desperately needs. |
You can doubt that as much as you want. It is a fact that the Americans treated Saddam in a more humane way while in custody than the Iraqi government, and he felt more comfortable with his American capturers, though he didn't want to be invaded by the U.S. and then sent to the gallows. The American officers involved with the hand over didn't agree with the rush to execute him, especially close to the Sunni timing of the Eid holiday. It was the choice of the Shiites, not the Americans.
However, both the Shiites and Americans will get the blame, and many Sunnis in Iraq are livid. The Shiite backed government really botched the execution. The guy was cruel, a dictator, responsible for genocide, but they made him look like a martyr. That is a big mistake. He doesn't deserve to appear like a martyr. |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:34 am Post subject: Re: Uncle Sam not happy with how government handled executio |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
Yeah, well...I doubt that. As much as I think the US is responsible for the trouble it is getting in Iraq (they didn't have to start the war as Saddam wasn't a real threat to the US), they will get blamed for whatever mess the Iraqi government creates eventhough it was democratically elected and essentially controled by al-Sadr since he hold the swing votes that the minority government desperately needs. |
You can doubt that as much as you want. It is a fact that the Americans treated Saddam in a more humane way while in custody than the Iraqi government, and he felt more comfortable with his American capturers, though he didn't want to be invaded by the U.S. and then sent to the gallows. The American officers involved with the hand over didn't agree with the rush to execute him, especially close to the Sunni timing of the Eid holiday. It was the choice of the Shiites, not the Americans.
However, both the Shiites and Americans will get the blame, and many Sunnis in Iraq are livid. The Shiite backed government really botched the execution. The guy was cruel, a dictator, responsible for genocide, but they made him look like a martyr. That is a big mistake. He doesn't deserve to appear like a martyr. |
Well, that and it made the government look like a bunch of thugs...which al-Sadr could have wanted to happen, or so it was made to appear by the jerks who were screaming, 'Long live al-Sadr'. It was botched. Question is...By who and why? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:41 am Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Question is...By who and why? |
Thugs or not, Third-World actors are not minors; they are adults. This may seem obvious. But it also seems necessary to reiterate that this means that they act on their own and they, too, are responsible for their actions.
The people who hastily and emotionally executed Saddam were not his biggest fans. Whose fault is this? How about Saddam's? We who criticize the war sometimes conveniently forget that Saddam ruled Iraq with an iron fist for decades. He fell into the hands of one of the groups he had persecuted the most. Perhaps it was a just end.
U.S.-centrism accounts for such a failure to consider local conditions and actors as the decisive forces in most historical incidents and events -- including this one.
CNN reported this...
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BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. officials reportedly tried to delay last week's execution of Saddam Hussein, fearing it would fuel perceptions the death of the former Iraqi dictator was more about Shiite retribution and less about justice.
Those fears seemed borne out by an amateur recording of Hussein's last moments.
It was a caution that fell on deaf ears, however, as Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, a Shiite, was determined to put Hussein to death before the beginning of the Eid al-Adha holiday... |
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/02/saddam.execution/index.html
This reminds me of the Dominicans' assassinating Trujillo in June 1961. Trujillo was perhaps worse than Saddam.
As Trujillo's position became impossible, JFK carefully weighed his options and each one's moral consequences. He told his advisors that the United States ought to strive to promote democracy in the Dominican Republic. But the United States also ought to back whatever functioning govt that might prevent Castro's influencing Dominican affairs in his favor.
In this case, Kennedy attempted to abort Dominican dissidents' plans to murder Trujillo. The United States might temporarily continue to back Trujillo until better prepared to deal with the situation.
But the Dominican dissidents told State and CIA's representatives on the ground that this was not Washington's affair. They killed him anyway.
I have seen the same pattern repeated in South Vietnam, Chile, and elsewhere. Here it is happening again in Iraq.
The United States is not all-powerful. Others make moves, decisive moves -- and for their own purposes.
Finally, Hollywoodaction asks "Why?" There is not always a method to their madness. Sometimes grasping the "why?" involves no more steps than merely apprehending whichever emotion rules whichever local actors you are looking at the moment they act...
Last edited by Gopher on Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:38 am Post subject: |
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| Well, the Iraqi government is investigating the executioners. They want to know who mistreated Saddam and who leaked the video. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:10 am Post subject: |
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Bush is upset about Iraq's rush to hang Saddam... errr ... isn't this the Bush who rushed to invade, who rushed to dismantle the Iraqi army, who rushed to hand over the government to Iraqis...
And the pot suddenly is calling the kettle black?
God lord. That man is just never going to get it. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
Bush is upset about Iraq's rush to hang Saddam... errr ... isn't this the Bush who rushed to invade, who rushed to dismantle the Iraqi army, who rushed to hand over the government to Iraqis...
And the pot suddenly is calling the kettle black?
God lord. That man is just never going to get it. |
It is do as say, not as I do. The rush to hang Saddam may cost U.S. lives and America invested hundreds of billions in that Iraqi government that has done who knows what with the money. The biggest mistake was de-Ba'athification and the dismantling of the army. The fellow who was before Paul Bremer opposed that, but he couldn't stop it. America kind of stuck between a Shiite and a Sunni place, so to speak, and getting out of there is kind of problematic. Anyway, it was American officers on the ground who said they didn't want this rushed and they told their Iraqi counterparts. After all, it was not they who captured Saddam, it was American troops who did. The mistake was handing him over so quickly. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: |
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"Al-Maliki ordered his interior ministry to investigate who made the video and how it reached television and websites for public viewing.
An earlier US newspaper report said that Munqith al-Faroon, an Iraqi prosecutor that was present at the execution, identified the culprit.
"One of two men seen holding a cell phone camera aloft to make a video of Mr. Hussein's last moments ... was Mowaffak al-Rubaie, Mr. Maliki's national security adviser," he was alleged as saying.
On Wednesday however, al-Faroon denied reports that he had accused the country's national security adviser of the responsibility for the leaked video."
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/DDEA9B62-B8BB-4B92-8178-AFCB0654E9C6.htm
cbc |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
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"The UN chief started his first day on the job by departing from the traditional opposition of the international organisation to the death penalty, saying nations can make their own decisions.
Asked on Tuesday about the execution of Saddam Hussein, Ban Ki-moon said the former Iraqi president committed "heinous crimes and unspeakable atrocities against the Iraqi people and we should never forget the victims of these crimes".
He said "the issue of capital punishment is for each and every member state to decide" and in conformity with international law."
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/532F4B37-DE78-490E-B6F9-867B21325AAB.htm
cbc |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
"
Asked on Tuesday about the execution of Saddam Hussein, Ban Ki-moon said the former Iraqi president committed "heinous crimes and unspeakable atrocities against the Iraqi people and we should never forget the victims of these crimes".
He said "the issue of capital punishment is for each and every member state to decide" and in conformity with international law."
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/532F4B37-DE78-490E-B6F9-867B21325AAB.htm
cbc |
I noticed that. He'll need to get his own pair of balls now. He's the leader of the UN now, not a Korean politician. He's not taking marching orders from Roh. Yeah yeah, Korea supports the death penalty but it's UN policy he needs to espouse even if it might, gasp, contradict Korean policy. He's going to have to ruffle feathers back at home or he's going to have to get off the pot. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| He's not taking marching orders from Roh. Yeah yeah, Korea supports the death penalty but it's UN policy he needs to espouse even if it might, gasp, contradict Korean policy. |
If I'm not mistaken, Korean policy under both DJ and Roh has been to commute all death sentences. So I don't know if Ban's supposed reluctance to push for a worldwide ban can be blamed on Korean domestic politics. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| cbclark4 wrote: |
"The UN chief started his first day on the job by departing from the traditional opposition of the international organisation to the death penalty, saying nations can make their own decisions.
Asked on Tuesday about the execution of Saddam Hussein, Ban Ki-moon said the former Iraqi president committed "heinous crimes and unspeakable atrocities against the Iraqi people and we should never forget the victims of these crimes".
He said "the issue of capital punishment is for each and every member state to decide" and in conformity with international law."
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/532F4B37-DE78-490E-B6F9-867B21325AAB.htm
cbc |
Some states that practice the death penalty may agree including the U.S., Middle Eastern states, maybe Korea and Japan. |
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