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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:26 am Post subject: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/05/uk.cartoon.reut/index.html
To me, this is scary. It is taking things way to far. I am American, and this happened in Britain, but I wonder if a person would have been prosecuted if they called for the bombing of North Korea in a public forum? I doubt it.
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:38 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| I wonder if a person would have been prosecuted if they called for the bombing of North Korea in a public forum? |
Well, it would be pretty hard to get any terrorists in to North Korea for suicide attacks on the subway etc. Remember, this guy wasn't talking about military bombing, he was talking London bombings bombing. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| I wonder if a person would have been prosecuted if they called for the bombing of North Korea in a public forum? |
Well, it would be pretty hard to get any terrorists in to North Korea for suicide attacks on the subway etc. Remember, this guy wasn't talking about military bombing, he was talking London bombings bombing. |
Yes, the technicality is there, but it is a slippery slope. I believe speech should be protected at all costs. Speech does not = action.
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Yes, the technicality is there, but it is a slippery slope. I believe speech should be protected at all costs. Speech does not = action. |
So death threats should be legal? Conspiracy to commit murder? A line has to be drawn somewhere. In this case you just happen to not agree with where that particular court has decided that the line lies, but this isn't a freedom of speech issue. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:00 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Yes, the technicality is there, but it is a slippery slope. I believe speech should be protected at all costs. Speech does not = action. |
So death threats should be legal? Conspiracy to commit murder? A line has to be drawn somewhere. In this case you just happen to not agree with where that particular court has decided that the line lies, but this isn't a freedom of speech issue. |
Well, if someone comes to your door and says "I've got a hand grenade in my car, do you think I should go and lob it at the police station?", and you reply "hey, great idea!", then I'd say that's a pretty clear-cut case of incitement. The pivotal aspect, for me, is that your words played a pivotal factor in making the person decide to commit a crime.
In the case of this clown in London, I'm not so sure. If I write on Dave's "I support the actions of the Iraqi insurgency", or "I'd like to see the people of North Korea rise up and hang KJI and anyone who supports him from a lamppost", am I guilty of inciting criminal violence in Iraq or North Korea? And if not, isn't it a bit arbitrary to apply the otherwise rejected definition of incitement to this guy in London? |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
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The demonstration -- where some protesters waved placards praising the 2005 London bombings by four British Islamists which killed 52 people -- attracted widespread condemnation.
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Treason.
Still technically a hanging offence.
Hang them. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:07 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| Yes, the technicality is there, but it is a slippery slope. I believe speech should be protected at all costs. Speech does not = action. |
So death threats should be legal? Conspiracy to commit murder? A line has to be drawn somewhere. In this case you just happen to not agree with where that particular court has decided that the line lies, but this isn't a freedom of speech issue. |
Well, if someone comes to your door and says "I've got a hand grenade in my car, do you think I should go and lob it at the police station?", and you reply "hey, great idea!", then I'd say that's a pretty clear-cut case of incitement. The pivotal aspect, for me, is that your words played a pivotal factor in making the person decide to commit a crime.
In the case of this clown in London, I'm not so sure. If I write on Dave's "I support the actions of the Iraqi insurgency", or "I'd like to see the people of North Korea rise up and hang KJI and anyone who supports him from a lamppost", am I guilty of inciting criminal violence in Iraq or North Korea? And if not, isn't it a bit arbitrary to apply the otherwise rejected definition of incitement to this guy in London? |
It doesn;t matter what another person decides to do. With this line of reasoning, can you imagine the backlog of lawsuits concerning movies? Anyone could say they were incited to do anything based on anything anyone says. The slope is too slippery. Actions are definitely louder than words.
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Well, if someone comes to your door and says "I've got a hand grenade in my car, do you think I should go and lob it at the police station?", and you reply "hey, great idea!", then I'd say that's a pretty clear-cut case of incitement. The pivotal aspect, for me, is that your words played a pivotal factor in making the person decide to commit a crime.
In the case of this clown in London, I'm not so sure. If I write on Dave's "I support the actions of the Iraqi insurgency", or "I'd like to see the people of North Korea rise up and hang KJI and anyone who supports him from a lamppost", am I guilty of inciting criminal violence in Iraq or North Korea? And if not, isn't it a bit arbitrary to apply the otherwise rejected definition of incitement to this guy in London? |
It seems that you're suggesting that unless someone's words can be proven to be a 'pivotal factor' in someone's decision to commit a crime, then no harm, no foul. If this is indeed the case, I then have to ask what you make of anti-hate speech laws in the West.
edit: from the protest
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:34 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| On the other hand wrote: |
Well, if someone comes to your door and says "I've got a hand grenade in my car, do you think I should go and lob it at the police station?", and you reply "hey, great idea!", then I'd say that's a pretty clear-cut case of incitement. The pivotal aspect, for me, is that your words played a pivotal factor in making the person decide to commit a crime.
In the case of this clown in London, I'm not so sure. If I write on Dave's "I support the actions of the Iraqi insurgency", or "I'd like to see the people of North Korea rise up and hang KJI and anyone who supports him from a lamppost", am I guilty of inciting criminal violence in Iraq or North Korea? And if not, isn't it a bit arbitrary to apply the otherwise rejected definition of incitement to this guy in London? |
It seems that you're suggesting that unless someone's words can be proven to be a 'pivotal factor' in someone's decision to commit a crime, then no harm, no foul. If this is indeed the case, I then have to ask what you make of anti-hate speech laws in the West.
edit: from the protest
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I know the question is not directed at me, but I think there is no place for anti-hate speech laws. Who has the right (morally) to say it is ok to hate one thing, but not another?
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| I know the question is not directed at me, but I think there is no place for anti-hate speech laws. |
Ok, but I'm curious what your feelings on this matter would have been if the defendent was being prosecuted for encouraging a fundamentalist mob to murder doctors or to bomb gay bars. Can you think of any cases where you might want to see some legal restrictions on the type of violence that people can suggest that others commit? |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| I know the question is not directed at me, but I think there is no place for anti-hate speech laws. |
Ok, but I'm curious what your feelings on this matter would have been if the defendent was being prosecuted for encouraging a fundamentalist mob to murder doctors or to bomb gay bars. Can you think of any cases where you might want to see some legal restrictions on the type of violence that people can suggest that others commit? |
No. As a gay man, I cannot defend the prohibition of homophobes from speaking their minds. That goes for any type of inflammatory speech. I certainly do not agree with the speech, but that should not make it illegal.
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| No. As a gay man, I cannot defend the prohibition of homophobes from speaking their minds. That goes for any type of inflammatory speech. I certainly do not agree with the speech, but that should not make it illegal. |
So if an influential religious leader started telling his followers that god wanted them to kill gays, you would be fine with that? Just sacred free speech?
And just to make this clear, people have the right to hate things, and they have the right to express this hatred. However, you also seem to think that they have the right to advise others to hurt and kill the objects of their hatred. I disagree. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It seems that you're suggesting that unless someone's words can be proven to be a 'pivotal factor' in someone's decision to commit a crime, then no harm, no foul. If this is indeed the case, I then have to ask what you make of anti-hate speech laws in the West. |
I am completely opposed to those laws. |
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seoulunitarian
Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: Re: Inciting Racial Hatred |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| No. As a gay man, I cannot defend the prohibition of homophobes from speaking their minds. That goes for any type of inflammatory speech. I certainly do not agree with the speech, but that should not make it illegal. |
So if an influential religious leader started telling his followers that god wanted them to kill gays, you would be fine with that? Just sacred free speech?
And just to make this clear, people have the right to hate things, and they have the right to express this hatred. However, you also seem to think that they have the right to advise others to hurt and kill the objects of their hatred. I disagree. |
In answer to your first two questions: yes. The speakers are toeing the line. Those who are so weak-minded that they follow advice which will lead to actions of violence should be found guilty. Speech, however heinous, should never be illegal.
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I have to disagree with Unitarian slightly, because I do think it's possible, at least in some cases, to draw a qualitative distinction between speech that is merely nasty and speech that is a calculated attempt to encourage crime. I admit that I am not totally decided about the London case.
Interestingly, I was just reading another message board where they were discussing the prison sentence given to some punk who had hacked the website. People were making jokes along the lines of "don't drop the soap, kid", and one guy even explicitly stated that he wanted the hacker to get raped in jail. Which got me to thinking about how often we hear "law and order" types saying that they hope some criminal gets subjected to "rough justice" in prison. Is this incitement? After all, beating, raping, and killing convicts is illegal.
Last edited by On the other hand on Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:01 am; edited 2 times in total |
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