Korean Job Discussion Forums

[spyro25]

'I saw the church lie on the hill'

is this sentence correct? If not could anyone explain why? (only got a 'c' for linguistics.....)

also if anyone has the time could they explicitly explain which is acceptable / the difference between the two here:

'i saw the book lying on the sofa' or 'i saw the book lie on the sofa'

[spyro25]

Its to do with the difference between infinitival complements and progressive complements, yet i can't explain properly what these are and why one is used and the other isnt

in my example, i think 'i saw the book lying on the sofa' is correct, whereas 'i saw the book lie on the sofa' is incorrect. However I can't explain why at the moment...

[cubanlord]

Again, Woland is the guy to talk to about this, but, I will give it a shot:

'lie' is something you do to yourself while 'lay' is something you do to something else.

lie is intransitive and does not take an object.
lay is transitive and does take an object.

Hope this helps.

[spliff]

"I saw the book lay on the sofa. I waited till her back was turned and discreetly exchanged it"

[Yu_Bum_suk]

The simplist way to remember the simple past tense for lie / lay is 'The little Lord Jesus laid down his sweet head / The stars in the bright sky /
Looked down where He lay'. If it takes a direct object use 'laid'; if it doesn't use 'lay'.

[daskalos]

Yes, this does call for Woland.

I'll take it as far as I can.

First, this isn't a question of lie/lay. The verb "to lay" isn't in the OP.

Why can we see the book lying on the table, but not see the book lie on the table? My instinct tells me that, as to the second part, to see the book lie on the table would mean that we saw the book, from a standing position, take it upon itself to lie down on the table, and in this universe a book can't to that.

"Lying" on the table, though, is in this case a state of being. It requires no action on the part of the inanimate book.

Let's move the situation to something living. "I saw the man sit in the chair" vs. "I saw the man sitting in the chair."

The first means you saw him perform the act that took him from a standing position to a sitting position. In the second, the man you saw was already sitting in the chair when you first saw him.

So perhaps the answer to OP is as simple as that it's not possible for a church or a book to engage in the active verb in question.

Woland, what part of speech, in the examples, are "lying" and "sitting"? Present participles? Please help.

[bobbybigfoot]

[quote="daskalos"]
So perhaps the answer to OP is as simple as that it's not possible for a church or a book to engage in the active verb in question.
[quote]

That's exactly what I thougt. Doesn't make sense to see a church lie on a hill. Personally I think this kind of grammar is overkill. If English natives can't figure it out, why the hell teach this to Koreans?

What are you teaching, advanced English to University graduates? And if you don't know, then why are you teaching it?

[faster]

It's an active verb in this case, which requires an agent - if you saw the house lie on the hill, that personifies the house -> you saw it in the act of lying.

If, however, you saw the house that lies on the hill, the problem is solved.