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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: Horn Of Plenty? Plenty of what....? |
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ZANZIBAR, Tanzania, Dec. 24 � Ethiopia officially plunged into war with Somalia�s Islamist forces on Sunday, bombing targets inside Somalia and pushing ground troops deep into Somali territory in a major escalation that could turn Somalia�s internal crisis into a violent religious conflict that engulfs the entire Horn of Africa. |
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Witnesses in frontline areas have said that waves of young, poorly trained Islamist fighters have been mowed down by Ethiopian troops. Ethiopia�s military is trained by American advisers and is supplied with millions of dollars of American aid.
On Sunday, Abdulrahim Ali Modei, the Islamists� information minister, conceded at a news conference that many of the Islamist troops had been killed, but he did not sound discouraged. |
Just another fanning of the flames and another example of the ill conceived war on "Jihad". It is all about other people dying for some fanciful and smoky ideological notion / illusion.
Just another round of bloodshed. Fed by the arms industry from all over the world but the aggression of Ethiopia in the supposed extension of the war against "Islamists" is fed by American support, advising, training and military investment. Ethiopia is so dirt poor yet they still have lots of help from Russian (who get the cash) and U.S. govts (who give it free of charge.... or through Israel, the major dealer in the region).
Makes me sick to see how we stir the pot in these parts of the world. My question, why was the arms embargo ever lifted on this region? Seems to have passed by without a notice.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/25/world/africa/25somalia.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1167109200&en=8673f144ebb7225e&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin
DD |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| So there is still one country in Africa stemming the advance of the triffids? Hooooray. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course, because Somalia was running so humanely under the control of the Islamists and Warlords. |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Just another fanning of the flames and another example of the ill conceived war on "Jihad". |
Do you even know what Jihad means? It means "holy war." I, for one, support any opposition to the contradictory concept of holy war. Only a cult of death would elevate war to a holy status.
Have you paid attention to the rhetoric that the Islamic courts have been saying about Ethoipia and the internationally recognized government of Somalia? Have you not noticed that people were executed in Somalia for daring to watch the 2006 World Cup and for having a marriage celebration with both men AND women present by these Islamic courts?
Stop being the devil's advocate, and be happy that these ruthless jihadmongers are being slaughtered now, before they take all of north africa and plunge it into a new, darker age. |
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Leslie Cheswyck
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: University of Western Chile
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I see.
Jihad OK.
War on jihad not OK.
In a word: ddeubletalk. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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These Ethiopians... with their upstart religion, they've only been Christian for what, 2000 years?... how dare they fight back!
Seriously, we can disagree with the tactics; but how could anyone dispute the Ethiopians looking at the Sudan and then defending themselves?
Ken:> |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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I think many people have a very short memory in regards to Somalia.
Just for one, what has the non Islamic governments of the past 25 years brought to Somalia? Peace, prosperity?
No, I don't like Islamic "Jihad" or any "had" for that matter. But the crux of this is once again, developed nations aiding and abetting poor nations to slaughter each other into the 21 st century. Where do all these guns come from ? That is the question of the day. Not anything else religious etc.....
Again, let's look at U.S. fumbling in this part of the world. First off, they openly supported warlords and NOT the interm govt. Why? Who knows other than they are putting their cards on cruelty winning the day.
Secondly, their extensive aid to Ethiopia has brought on the present aggression and slaughter. Ethiopia could ill afford or even manage the latest assault without foreign "aid" .
Thirdly, let's just remember the 93 fiasco. The U.S. should foster alliances not send out the pitbulls. I agree with this policy analyst's reasonings and caution....
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First, Somalia's Islamist movement, Al-Ittihad, is not synonymous with Al-Qaeda, and media insinuations to the contrary are wildly wrong. Al-Ittihad is a small, relatively weak organization, with a mainly domestic agenda. Some individual members have had links to Al-Qaeda that merit close scrutiny, but the group as a whole is in no way a subsidiary of Al-Qaeda.
Second, Somalia's Transitional National Government (TNG) is not a front for al-Ittihad, and is not the Somali equivalent of the Taliban government. It is extremely weak, controlling only half of the city of Mogadishu, and while it has some Al-Ittihad members in its parliament, it is by no means a front for violent Islamists.
Third, Somalia does not currently harbor active terrorist bases and camps. Somalia's Al-Ittihad movement abandoned the few towns and rural outposts it once controlled, and has since integrated into local communities as teachers, health workers, and businessmen. Bombing abandoned outposts would be a pointless exercise in rearranging rocks.
Finally, Somalia is not a likely safe haven for fleeing Al-Qaeda members. Concern about Somalia as a terrorist refuge is understandable. It is a collapsed state with no functional central government; global outlaws there could presumably escape the reach of law. In reality, however, Somalia is a lousy hideout for non-Somali radicals. Foreigners cannot operate in secrecy in Somalia; everyone knows who you are and what you're doing, and locals would not hesitate to expose the presence of non-Somalis in their midst.
What does all this mean for an expanded war on terrorism in Somalia? It suggests that the only military action that might be appropriate in Somalia is a limited operation of capturing one or several major suspects. Chasing down minor players in the armed, clannish neighborhoods of Mogadishu would be dangerous and counterproductive.
Ideally, U.S. policy toward Somalia should be a combination of close monitoring, surveillance, and naval interdiction--which we are already doing--as well as constructive engagement with Somalia's many local and regional authorities. Somalis are above all else pragmatists, and if presented with the right combination of carrots and sticks--and if treated with respect--will work with us in the war on terrorism. Threatening military moves are not likely to achieve that goal. U.S. policy in Somalia will shed light on whether the war on terrorism is an essentially military campaign, or if we are clever and patient enough as a country to draw on the many tools in our toolbox besides the hammer. |
DD |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue Dec 26, 2006 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Leslie Cheswyck wrote: |
In a word: ddeubletalk. |
Best name-word since, "jinjurious." |
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mateomiguel
Joined: 16 May 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| All I know is that I would absolutely hate to live in a world that ddeubel advocates. That would be a world in which people I trust less than my own government have all the power. The alternatives to the current geopolitical situation are worse, dude. Accept that. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| I think many people have a very short memory in regards to Somalia... |
Glad to see that most posters reject your worldview as I do, Ddeubel. And, by the way, OP's photo looks too much like a staged photo to me. Not surprising that a leftist would peddle such a photo here.
Regards your charge that we have "a very short memory" regarding Somali affairs: no, I do not agree with this either.
| Department of State wrote: |
NOTE: Somalia has been without a central government since 1991, and much of the territory has been subject to serious civil strife. There is no official U.S. representation in Somalia. Statistical data on Somalia in this report are subject to dispute and error...
Government
Type: None...
Independence: July 1, 1960 (from a merger between the former Somaliland Protectorate under British rule, which became independent from the UK on June 26, 1960, and Italian Somaliland, which became independent from the Italian-administered UN trusteeship on July 1, 1960, to form the Somali Republic).
Constitution: None in force...
Political party: None functioning. Legal system: none functioning...
Somalia's modern history began in the late 19th century, when various European powers began to trade and establish themselves in the area... |
In short, as an American, my country has few interests on the ground, and therefore this is not my mess. Britain and Italy came and then left the place in a shambles -- which just might have been the condition in which they found it, by the way. In any case, where are the British and Italians now?
Also, fifty years have passed since independence. As far as I can tell, Somalis have done little more than bicker with and fight each other. When are they going to step up to the plate and settle their own affairs?
So, as I am sure you can predict, I would wish the Somalis best of luck in whatever course they choose for themselves, as long as they do not support any terroristic attack against United States. End of story. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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i can't believe people are backing ethiopia here. Somalia is no threat to Ethiopia whatsoever. It is an anarchic state that has had domestic warfare for the past 15 years.
The ethiopian gov't has slowly been cracking down on civil rights and freedom of speech during the past couple years. This war is serving as a distraction and attempt to unify Ethiopia's citizens. in addition, Ethiopia's arch enemy, Eritrea, is supplying the Somaili fundies, so Ethiopia feels compelled to take them out.
Ethiopia hasn't learned its lesson. Eritrea might be a dump, but it knows how to do one thing: how to kick Ethiopia's ass. I sincerly doubt Ethiopia won't be better off once this is over.
if any nation should attack Somalia, it should be Kenya. Why? Because its north is actually being disturbed by Islamic fundies going back and forth between the two countries. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
I think many people have a very short memory in regards to Somalia.
Just for one, what has the non Islamic governments of the past 25 years brought to Somalia? Peace, prosperity?
No, I don't like Islamic "Jihad" or any "had" for that matter. But the crux of this is once again, developed nations aiding and abetting poor nations to slaughter each other into the 21 st century. Where do all these guns come from ? That is the question of the day. Not anything else religious etc.....
Again, let's look at U.S. fumbling in this part of the world. First off, they openly supported warlords and NOT the interm govt. Why? Who knows other than they are putting their cards on cruelty winning the day.
Secondly, their extensive aid to Ethiopia has brought on the present aggression and slaughter. Ethiopia could ill afford or even manage the latest assault without foreign "aid" .
Thirdly, let's just remember the 93 fiasco. The U.S. should foster alliances not send out the pitbulls. I agree with this policy analyst's reasonings and caution....
DD |
Dear Mr. ddeubletalk,
Please note that these "Islamist" have been operating pogroms in Somalia as well as Darfur.
The only US interest in Somalia is feeding the starving people.
Sit back and watch.
cbc |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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In short, as an American, my country has few interests on the ground, and therefore this is not my mess. Britain and Italy came and then left the place in a shambles -- which just might have been the condition in which they found it, by the way. In any case, where are the British and Italians now?
Also, fifty years have passed since independence. As far as I can tell, Somalis have done little more than bicker with and fight each other. When are they going to step up to the plate and settle their own affairs? |
If only your own govt would follow your advice, seems like they do see much of interest on the ground.
It was the U.S. that sponsored and pushed for the recent UN resolution electing a 8,000 member strong U.N. peacekeeping force into the country AND also allowing exemption for the Somali interm govt to break the arms embargo (so Ethiopia could funnel them arms). Why would your govt do this if not to keep the fires burning?
As one commentor on another site said when discussing the matter,
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| Why does the UN want to go in now that the Islamists have done a better job than the UN would ever have done. |
Truth of the matter is that the "Islamists" have done a damn good job of creating some semblance of order, legitimacy and rule of law. The recent events trash that.
I say let them settle their own affairs but unfortunately as the late , great Bolton said about this matter,
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| The choice of doing nothing is really not a choice at all |
The U.S. could have supported the peace talks but instead tried to undermine them through the U.N. resolution and also through tacit military support of the war lords and through advisors, of Ethiopia.
Fact of the matter is that this region has toooo long (like so much of Africa) , been a testing ground of Russian, Chinese, American military hardware. The people of these countries deserve better and for us to leave them alone when it concerns throwing more fuel on their fires...
DD
PS>
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| Glad to see that most posters reject your worldview as I do, Ddeubel. And, by the way, OP's photo looks too much like a staged photo to me. Not surprising that a leftist would peddle such a photo here. |
Once again we see that you think "discussion" of foreign affairs is but a win/lose, who gets the gong and who gets the thunderous applause, ego boosting, pat myself on the back affair. I reject that attitude. You can continue to play the philosopher king in his cave of shadows.
Also not peddling. Please check with the NY Times regarding the legitimacy of this cover photo. I know nothing of its origins other than it is probably Reuters or AP. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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The photo in the OP is from AP withthe following caption
"The bodies of Islamist fighters, top, lay Sunday near Idaale, Somalia. Ethiopian warplanes struck deep inside Somalia territory, and tanks pushed farther into towns, in support of Somalia�s interim government."
Same link to NY TIMES as OP.
Apparently they were invited by the legitimate Somali gov't.
cbc |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| legit gov't? oh please. there is no legit gov't in somalia. it is only legit in the eyes of outsiders, no actual somalis. It was created by the UN. |
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