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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 12:57 am Post subject: Carter has written a book - Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid |
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Israel, Palestine, peace and apartheid
Americans need to know the facts about the abominable oppression of the Palestinians
Jimmy Carter
Tuesday December 12, 2006
The Guardian
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The many controversial issues concerning Palestine and the path to peace for Israel are intensely debated among Israelis and throughout other nations - but not in the United States. For the past 30 years, I have witnessed and experienced the severe restraints on any free and balanced discussion of the facts. This reluctance to criticise policies of the Israeli government is due to the extraordinary lobbying efforts of the American-Israel Political Action Committee and the absence of any significant contrary voices.
It would be almost politically suicidal for members of Congress to espouse a balanced position between Israel and Palestine, to suggest that Israel comply with international law or to speak in defence of justice or human rights for Palestinians. Very few would deign to visit the Palestinian cities of Ramallah, Nablus, Hebron, Gaza City or Bethlehem and talk to the beleaguered residents.
What is even more difficult to comprehend is why the editorial pages of the major newspapers and magazines in the US exercise similar self-restraint, quite contrary to private assessments expressed forcefully by their correspondents in the Holy Land. |
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The ultimate purpose of my book is to present facts about the Middle East that are largely unknown in America, to precipitate discussion and help restart peace talks (now absent for six years) that can lead to permanent peace for Israel and its neighbours.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1970058,00.html
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It will be interesting to see whether someone of his fame will be able to make some inroads into giving the American public a less censored understanding of what is going on in the occupied territories. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 1:10 am Post subject: Apartheid? |
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Two American editorials on the book. I've not read the book myself.
It's not Apartheid
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| In the six decades since the founding of Israel, there have been about one and a half new ideas for solving the most intractable problem on the map of the world. In fact, ever since Britain's Balfour Declaration (1917) made incompatible promises to Jews and Arabs struggling over the same tiny plot of land, most would-be solutions have counted on an outbreak of good will among the Middle East's warring parties. This tradition continues in the Iraq Study Group report, which declares, "There must be a renewed and sustained commitment by the United States to a comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace on all fronts," as a small warm-up for tackling the problem of Iraq. |
What would Jimmy do?
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Why is Carter so hard on Israeli settlements and so easy on Arab aggression and Palestinian terror? Because a specific agenda appears to be at work here. Carter seems to mean for this book to convince American evangelicals to reconsider their support for Israel...
...In a short chapter on the Clinton years, Carter blames the Israelis for the failures at Camp David. But I put more stock in the views of the president who was there than in those of the president who wasn't. "On the ninth day, I gave Arafat my best shot again," Clinton writes in My Life. "Again he said no. Israel had gone much further than he had, and he wouldn't even embrace their moves as the basis for future negotiations." Clinton applied himself heroically over the next six months to extract even better offers from Israel, all of which Arafat wouldn't accept. "I still didn't believe Arafat would make such a colossal mistake," Clinton remembers, with regret. According to Carter, however, Arafat made no mistakes. The failure was Israel's -- and by extension, Clinton's. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Same issue as calling the United States "banana republic" or Castro "Hitler." There are a million other examples.
The Arab-Israeli Conflict is already inflammed beyond all proportion. People should get their rhetoric under control and talk responsibly. I am disappointed in Carter. This is unworthy of him. He should be elevating the debate and not sinking down to the level of the propagandists and their bills of particulars. And there are more options than "peace" or "Apartheid," in any case. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Same issue as calling the United States "banana republic" or Castro "Hitler." There are a million other examples.
The Arab-Israeli Conflict is already inflammed beyond all proportion. People should get their rhetoric under control and talk responsibly. I am disappointed in Carter. This is unworthy of him. He should be elevating the debate and not sinking down to the level of the propagandists and their bills of particulars. And there are more options than "peace" or "Apartheid," in any case. |
I would argue that there are many parallels between South African Apartheid and the Israeli occupation of Palestine, and so in fact do some Israelis themselves. Some Israeli journalists regularly point to this. I don't see any problem with him using that comparison/reference point as a way to get his readers to understand the very ugly situation there. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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Carter's Real Sin is Cutting to the Heart of the Problem
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Apartheid Analogy
No aspect of Carter's book has evoked more outrage than its identification of Israeli policy in the Occupied Palestinian Territory with apartheid. Michael Kinsley in the Washington Post called it "foolish and unfair," the Boston Globe editorialized that it was "irresponsibly provocative," while the New York Times reported that Jewish groups condemned it as "dangerous and anti-Semitic." (1)
In fact the comparison is a commonplace among informed commentators. From its initial encounter with Palestine the Zionist movement confronted a seemingly intractable dilemma: How to create a Jewish state in a territory that was overwhelmingly non-Jewish? Israeli historian Benny Morris observes that Zionists could choose from only two options: "the way of South Africa"--i.e., "the establishment of an apartheid state, with a settler minority lording it over a large, exploited native majority"--or "the way of transfer"--i.e., "you could create a homogeneous Jewish state or at least a state with an overwhelming Jewish majority by moving or transferring all or most of the Arabs out." (2)
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Former Archbishop Desmond Tutu on Apartheid in the Holy Land
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I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.
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Slep
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| Apartheid is a neccessary part of this occupation. I'm not sure if that excuses it, but it's definetly a logical conclusion. Yu have military rule that applies to one set of people (those in the west bank and palestine) and another set of laws that apply to those in Israel proper. Not to mention the Israeli only roads as well as citizenship laws that preclude spouses of israeli arabs. Not to mention the difference in funding you see depending on the ethnic make up of hte population. I"m not sure how many of you have been to Israel or Palestine, but you can tell which neighborhoods are Jewish and which are Arab based on how many parks are there or what conditions the schools are in. Again, these can be justified based on security demands (and i believe its legitimate to make this claim), but i think that for intellectual honesty, we should at least call it what it is, a form of apartheid/separation, etc.. |
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endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
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| Posted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:43 am Post subject: Re: Apartheid? |
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Why is Carter so hard on Israeli settlements and so easy on Arab aggression and Palestinian terror? Because a specific agenda appears to be at work here. Carter seems to mean for this book to convince American evangelicals to reconsider their support for Israel...
...In a short chapter on the Clinton years, Carter blames the Israelis for the failures at Camp David. But I put more stock in the views of the president who was there than in those of the president who wasn't. "On the ninth day, I gave Arafat my best shot again," Clinton writes in My Life. "Again he said no. Israel had gone much further than he had, and he wouldn't even embrace their moves as the basis for future negotiations." Clinton applied himself heroically over the next six months to extract even better offers from Israel, all of which Arafat wouldn't accept. "I still didn't believe Arafat would make such a colossal mistake," Clinton remembers, with regret. According to Carter, however, Arafat made no mistakes. The failure was Israel's -- and by extension, Clinton's. |
I read President Clinton's autobiography and he went into depth into how frustrted he was with the peace process.
The thing is, he didn't really go into specifics on the deal offered to Arafat. And it was a horrible deal in my opinion.
Several settlements inside the West Bank would remain; and Israel would still retain authority over water and transportation in certain areas of the West Bank.
That deal is crap!
I beleive Clinton was more concerned with leaving legacy. Therefore when Arfat rejected the Israeli offer at Camp David (in the final days of Clinton's second term) Clinton lost out on a chance to be behind something meaningful and historic. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Seen this story, Big_Bird?
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ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Former President Jimmy Carter's controversial book and subsequent remarks about the Israel-Palestinian conflict have prompted the resignations of 14 people from an advisory board of the Carter Center, the 25-year-old Atlanta-based humanitarian organization.
The 14 explained their concerns, which reflect an uproar in the U.S. Jewish community over Carter's Mideast stance, in separate letters sent Thursday to fellow Board of Councilors members and Carter.
"We can no longer endorse your strident and uncompromising position," the letter to Carter said. "This is not the Carter Center or the Jimmy Carter we came to respect and support..." |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ha Ha Ha.
I think Carter has been there and knows a little more than "we" do about what is going on......he always qualifies much of what he says and the article doesn't point that out.
But -- the claims he is on the Arab payroll are too simple. By the same token, Bush and gang are even more on the payroll of Arab royals.....they depend on their largess to a certain extent just like the Carter Center. How many Arab dictators has Bush shaken hands with and been all smily with? Many. Also let's look at how much Houston real estate is Saudi owned, just for one little example....
come on, this site is purely anti-Arab everything.
DD |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Seen this story, Big_Bird?
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ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- Former President Jimmy Carter's controversial book and subsequent remarks about the Israel-Palestinian conflict have prompted the resignations of 14 people from an advisory board of the Carter Center, the 25-year-old Atlanta-based humanitarian organization.
The 14 explained their concerns, which reflect an uproar in the U.S. Jewish community over Carter's Mideast stance, in separate letters sent Thursday to fellow Board of Councilors members and Carter.
"We can no longer endorse your strident and uncompromising position," the letter to Carter said. "This is not the Carter Center or the Jimmy Carter we came to respect and support..." |
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I'm not surprised this has happened. He was fairly brave to write that book, especially as an American. He wouldn't have been surprised either. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
I'm not surprised this has happened. He was fairly brave to write that book, especially as an American. He wouldn't have been surprised either. |
jimmy carter is a lot of things, but brave isn't one of them. |
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spinario
Joined: 24 May 2006
Location: daegu
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:57 am Post subject: |
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does Jimmy Carter remember the arab nations, including palestine, attacking newly-created israel ONE day after its creation?
i don't, however, remember south african blacks ever trying to oppress south african whites.
the analogy to apartheid is not appropriate |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: |
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I just thought I'd bring a little bit of David Copperfield levity to the discussion before I curl up and burst forth like the yo-yo I am....this pre-Iraq invasion , a la Camp David II . I will soon come forth with my "why Arafat had to throw it in the garbage but why it means nothing now." version.
Sorry for the length but this is a protracted love affair....
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A One Act Play
Poker at Camp David
by LAWRENCE McGUIRE
Saturday Night (01/18/03)
Dramatis Personae:
Peacelovin' Jimmy: Former President of the U.S.A.
Willy the Slick: Former President of the U.S.A.
Oily Dick: Current Vice-President of the U.S.A.
Georgie Porgie: Current President of the U.S.A.
Georgie Porgie is watching TV alone at Camp David, eating pretzels (carefully), with a worried look on his face.
Oily Dick enters the room.
Georgie Porgie: "Look at the TV, Oily. See, I told you, in Washington, in San Francisco. And they're all saying mean things about me. Impeachment, they're even talking about impeachment!"
Oily Dick: "How many?"
Georgie Porgie: "CNN says tens of thousands."
Oily Dick : "Ah, that's rich. 'Tens of thousands'. Oh ho ho. Any fool knows that when you fill the Mall you get a hundred grand minimum. What are the real figures?"
Georgie Porgie: "I don't understand Oily"
Oily Dick: "The real figures Georgie. The REAL figures. Get on the horn and get the real figures."
Georgie Porgie: "But CNN says"
Oily Dick: "CNN says what we want them to say, and then they say 'Thanks'. How many times did your Dad and I tell you not to rot your mind with too much television! [aside] Oh, it's too late anyway. [To Georgie:] I'll call, you get the cards ready, we've got guests tonight." [Picks up the telephone] "Get me the Agency, doublequick..Yeah, it's the President you numbskullOf course I don't sound like Georgie Porgie, this is Oily Dick. How many in Washington? 468,613. Impressive. And in San Francisco? 227, 787. Hmm, any other big ones? 26,292 in Portland? Ok send me all the figures." [Hangs Up and immediately a fax machine prints out a few pages of data. He hands the sheets to Georgie Porgie]
Georgie Porgie, reading slowly: "468,613? Wow, that seems like a lot."
Oily Dick: "That IS a lot Georgie. And although we've got all their photographs from closed circuit TV, I'm afraid it's a"
Georgie Porgie: "Not a situation!"
Oily Dick: "Yep, a situation. I was worried about this. That's why I invited some family friends over tonight. A little council before the Poker match."
Enter Stage Right, Willy the Slick and Peacelovin' Jimmy
Oily Dick: "Willy. Jimmy. Have a seat boys. Did you hear?"
Willy the Slick: "Saw it on C-Span. Isn't Jessica something? Oh, I'd love to"
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "Now slow down Willy, you keep your pants on."
Oily Dick: "Sit down boys and have a drink. I'm telling Georgie here, I think we have a situation on our hands."
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "A situation? That bad, huh?"
Oily Dick: "That's why I invited you gents here tonight. Thanks for coming in the back door.
Willy the Slick: "How many times did they say ENRON today, Oily?"
Oily Dick, reading printout: "In the three major demonstrations today speakers uttered the word ENRON a total of 5 times."
Willy the Slick: "And how many times did they say the word HALLIBURTON?"
Oily Dick: "Not a single time."
Willy the Slick: "And how many times did they say the word IRAQ?"
Oily Dick, reading printout: "Uh, 97,568 times".
Willy the Slick: "So what are you worried about?"
Oily Dick: "You've got a point there Willy."
Georgie Porgie: "Well, when will they stop? I hate those faces with my puppets on them. And I want a war. I want a big war and a big victory. Daddy said if I beat Gore I would get a big war and a big victory and now those, those TERRORISTS on the street, are trying to stop me. And we have a SITUATION! What did I do to deserve this?'
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "Easy Georgie. Easy. Let's look on the bright side. I saw some other positive things at the protest."
Georgie Porgie: "Such as"
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "All that God talk. You hear how many speakers invoked the name of God? They talked about their Christian brothers and sisters, their Muslim brothers and sisters, their Jewish brothers and sisters, but they didn't say a word about agnostics or atheists."
Georgie Porgie: "And that's good?"
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "You bet it is Georgie Porgie. The more they use God's name, the more it will resonate when YOU use God's name! Best form of mind control ever invented. And the agnostics and atheists will keep their mouth shut, and keep out of sight; they're the ones to really watch, because they ask dangerous questions about how the mind works. All those orating preachers are doing your work for you Georgie Porgie. You keep on going to church, and when the going gets tough just use the God stuff, your opponents have prepared the field for you to harvest. Human rights and God, those are words that will grease anybody's path to a Nobel Peace Prize. After all, they forgot what I did with El Salvador, Nicaragua, Indonesia, and Afghanistan."
Willy the Slick: "And all that patriotic talk. 'Patriots against war'. That works for you in the long run too, Georgie Porgie. Works for all of us. We've got even our most bitter opponents sharing the basic assumptions that will keep us in power. The assumption that the STATE is a THING you can be proud of. Worshipping an idea created by the human mind. That's the second best form of mind control ever invented. As long as they worship the STATE we keep styling along.
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "So things aren't so bad after all. I mean, you didn't see any of us Democrats speaking, did you?"
Georgie Porgie: "I saw a couple. That awful woman from Georgia who suggested that I knew about a terrorist threat before September 11th."
Oily Dick: "But you did know about a terrorist threat before September 11th. Remember that briefing at your ranch in August, 2001?"
Georgie Porgie: "I know, but she didn't have to mention it in public, and ask so many questions about it.'
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "Well, she wasn't re-elected anyway. But did you see any Democratic party leadership out there speaking? No, of course not. Did you hear anyone asking where the opposition party leaders were? No. People now take it for granted that in our democracy the opposition party always supports war just as much as the party in power. That's a huge victory for us. Nobody expects the opposition party to oppose anything that matters."
Willy the Slick: "And how many people questioned the right of the U.S. to decide on which countries get to acquire nukes, and which must be prevented from acquiring nukes? The basic assumptions Georgie, that's what we have to worry about."
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "Exactly. Did anyone mention that Israel has over 200 nuclear weapons?"
Oily Dick, looking at printout: "It says here that only a few signs pointed out the obvious."
Willy the Slick: "You see, even if you don't get your war Georgie, everything is still going to be fine. And you'll probably get your war victory anyway. Oily, you remember 1991. Thousands marching in San Francisco, Chicago, New York but then the bombing starts and poof, it all disappeared. People went back to their television screens, and enjoyed the big show. They loved it! Highest ratings a war has ever gotten. Beat out the Cosby show every week for two months."
Georgie Porgie: "So we don't have a situation?"
Oily Dick: "Oh yes, we have a situation. But we don't know yet the extent of the situation.'
Willy the Slick: "First step is bomb them a little, pour on the juice about our American heroes risking their lives, and see how many of the liberals skedaddle off the street and into the easy chair. I jumped ten points in the ratings when I bombed that pharmaceutical factory in Sudan."
Oily Dick: "My ideas exactly, Willie. Once the bombs start falling on the civilians, I mean the enemy, Americans will start falling in line. Go for the quick victory. Bomb them to smithereens as quickly as possible. Show lots of film footage about high-tech weapons."
Georgie Porgie: "And if the demonstrations don't stop? What if they have more and bigger demonstrations? More and bigger puppets ridiculing me?"
Peacelovin' Jimmy: "Become a peacemaker. They'll love you for it. You'll probably get the Big Prize just like me and Henry."
Georgie Porgie: "But that will mean we lost"
Willy the Slick: "Lost! You eejit! We've turned a prosperous country into a train wreck. We've maintained the strongest economic and trade embargo on a country ever in world history. For ten years we've bombed them at will, we control their airspace, yet listen to all those folks in the anti-war movement bragging that this is the biggest pre-war anti-war movement ever! They didn't even notice the war we've been waging for the last twelve years. Think about that for a victory. We've killed over 1,000,000 Iraqis without having to deal with any major dissent. They pat themselves on the back now for anti-war demonstrations! You know what that means Georgie?"
Georgie Porgie: "Nope."
Willy the Slick: "That means the citizens in this country have internalized the new form of war. They don't even see it as war. We've got a huge new military base in Kosovo, Camp Bondsteel. Any of those protestors talk about that? Any of them even mention Kosovo? We've got military bases in Afghanistan, Kuwait, Oman, Saudi Arabia, all over the world. That's normal now for ALL U.S. citizens. You'll never see 100,000 people protesting about that. The hundred or more U.S. overseas military bases have become as normal to Americans as pumping their own gas."
Georgie Porgie: "So, if worse comes to worse we declare peace and continue the sanctions?"
Oily Dick: "Sure, but only if we can't have our war. And why not? Keep the oil in the ground. Keeps the price high anyway. We'll get it all in a few more years. Meanwhile we improve and expand our military bases. Keep the pressure on. And every country in the world gets the message: oppose us and you get war, or sanctions: heads we win, tails you lose. We go forward ten yards, retreat one, net gain of nine yards. That, Georgie Porgie, is basic winning football. Now let's shut up about politics and play some poker."
Lawrence McGuire is the author of The Great American Wagon Road. He lives in France. He can be reached at: [email protected] |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: |
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Double pointeur, excuse moi. I didn't have my mojo working..
DD |
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