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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: Does France Have the Answer? (Muslim integration) |
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I'm certainly no francophile. I think the French have shot themselves in the foot and are too stuck in the past, and not reforming their economy as they should be. And we all know about the riots about over a year ago. That being said, perhaps France is doing something right. I read this op-ed in today's local paper (the SF Chron). I came across some interesting stats. For instance:
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| First, French Muslims are much more likely than other European Muslims to emphasize their French identity. When asked to choose between religion and nationality as their primary identity, 42 percent of them said, French first, Muslim second. By contrast, only 7 percent of British Muslims and 3 percent of Spanish Muslims put nationality first. By the way, Pew reports that American Christians choose between religious and national identities in almost exactly the same proportion as do French Muslims. In other words, French Muslims balance their identities in about the same way as do American Christians. |
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| Secondly, French people as a whole think Islam can fit into France. When asked if there is a conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society, 74 percent of all French people said, "non!" Only about half as many other Europeans or Americans denies such a conflict. Indeed, French people are more positive about modern Islam than are people in Indonesia, Jordan or Egypt. |
How does it work for France? Well we all know about the headscarf bit. In addition:
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| Head scarves are out at school, but some enlightened mayors are giving land for mosques. The state gives newly arrived men and women hundreds of free hours of French language lessons, in an effort to make them more competitive for employment. Contrast recent Dutch policies (applied mainly to poorer counties) that require would-be immigrants, even the spouses of Dutch residents, to prove that they already speak good Dutch before they arrive, but provide no help in learning the language. The Dutch are using language to exclude Muslims, the French to integrate them. |
And lastly (personally I think this is a little weak, but still worth noting):
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| Nor do French Muslims live in ethnic enclaves. The housing projects around Paris contain people from different parts of Asia, Africa and Europe, and stand in stark contrast to all-Turkish neighborhoods in Belgium and or all-Pakistani parts of British cities. Young Muslims who emerge from this mixed environment speak only French, and they demand French-language sermons in their mosques -- and increasingly, get them. |
Article on sfgate.com |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| If France ever gets the answer, I propose we change the question -- without telling them, of course. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:20 am Post subject: Re: Does France Have the Answer? (Muslim integration) |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
I'm certainly no francophile. I think the French have shot themselves in the foot and are too stuck in the past, and not reforming their economy as they should be. And we all know about the riots about over a year ago. That being said, perhaps France is doing something right. I read this op-ed in today's local paper (the SF Chron). I came across some interesting stats. For instance:
| Quote: |
| First, French Muslims are much more likely than other European Muslims to emphasize their French identity. When asked to choose between religion and nationality as their primary identity, 42 percent of them said, French first, Muslim second. By contrast, only 7 percent of British Muslims and 3 percent of Spanish Muslims put nationality first. By the way, Pew reports that American Christians choose between religious and national identities in almost exactly the same proportion as do French Muslims. In other words, French Muslims balance their identities in about the same way as do American Christians. |
| Quote: |
| Secondly, French people as a whole think Islam can fit into France. When asked if there is a conflict between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern society, 74 percent of all French people said, "non!" Only about half as many other Europeans or Americans denies such a conflict. Indeed, French people are more positive about modern Islam than are people in Indonesia, Jordan or Egypt. |
How does it work for France? Well we all know about the headscarf bit. In addition:
| Quote: |
| Head scarves are out at school, but some enlightened mayors are giving land for mosques. The state gives newly arrived men and women hundreds of free hours of French language lessons, in an effort to make them more competitive for employment. Contrast recent Dutch policies (applied mainly to poorer counties) that require would-be immigrants, even the spouses of Dutch residents, to prove that they already speak good Dutch before they arrive, but provide no help in learning the language. The Dutch are using language to exclude Muslims, the French to integrate them. |
And lastly (personally I think this is a little weak, but still worth noting):
| Quote: |
| Nor do French Muslims live in ethnic enclaves. The housing projects around Paris contain people from different parts of Asia, Africa and Europe, and stand in stark contrast to all-Turkish neighborhoods in Belgium and or all-Pakistani parts of British cities. Young Muslims who emerge from this mixed environment speak only French, and they demand French-language sermons in their mosques -- and increasingly, get them. |
Article on sfgate.com |
You are forgetting some very important things. Most of these Muslims are from the Maghreb countries - Algeria, Morrocco, and Tunisia. They were all part of the French Empire. So they already knew the French language. Many of these people were French citizens for a long time.
So the North Africans wouldn't feel completely out of place since they would be familiar with the language and would relate to it.
When it comes to Spain, the Spanish never ruled North Africa. So there is a difference.
When it comes to the Pakistanis, you might argue that the British ruled India and by extension Pakistan. True, but the Pakistanis don't speak English as well as people in North Africa speak French. Also, geographically North Africa is closer to Europe and they are more familiar with European norms than the Pakistanis. Pakistan was formed to separate Muslims from non-Muslims.
I think that should be factored in, but I was saying that North African Muslims feel more connected to France than Pakistanis do in England.
So if France takes Muslim immigrants they would be better off with those from Turkey or North Africa than those from Pakistan in terms of integration on a general level.
You do have a point that France has dealings with Muslims for a much longer time than Britain and had a strong relationship with the Ottoman Empire for a long time. Many French words are found among some of the Arabic dialects. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:20 am Post subject: |
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moving from sunny north africa to sunny south of france is a little less jarring than going from the subcontinent to britain.
the cultural/geographic/meterologic displacement british muslims feel is most likely a tad more intense than french muslims...
heck even time zones play a significant role in cultural displacement. And seeing how virtually all European Muslims immigrated since the telephone and its succesors......
it's quite obvious that Britain's Muslims are the most "displaced"....
(btw, this is my own theory, never read it anywhere else) |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| lol, until i read adventurer's thread....that is... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Does France Have the Answer? (Muslim integration) |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
You are forgetting some very important things. Most of these Muslims are from the Maghreb countries - Algeria, Morrocco, and Tunisia. They were all part of the French Empire. So they already knew the French language. Many of these people were French citizens for a long time.
So the North Africans wouldn't feel completely out of place since they would be familiar with the language and would relate to it. |
I didn't write the article, and I am aware of that. I agree that is a factor. Some of the cities in North Africa certainly feel very French.
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| You do have a point that France has dealings with Muslims for a much longer time than Britain and had a strong relationship with the Ottoman Empire for a long time. Many French words are found among some of the Arabic dialects. |
Thanks, but I didn't make make the point, the author did. 
I was just sharing the article because there is a lot of french bashing on this forum. I thought this might serve as a good counter-balance. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Does France Have the Answer? (Muslim integration) |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
You are forgetting some very important things. Most of these Muslims are from the Maghreb countries - Algeria, Morrocco, and Tunisia. They were all part of the French Empire. So they already knew the French language. Many of these people were French citizens for a long time.
So the North Africans wouldn't feel completely out of place since they would be familiar with the language and would relate to it. |
I didn't write the article, and I am aware of that. I agree that is a factor. Some of the cities in North Africa certainly feel very French.
| Quote: |
| You do have a point that France has dealings with Muslims for a much longer time than Britain and had a strong relationship with the Ottoman Empire for a long time. Many French words are found among some of the Arabic dialects. |
Thanks, but I didn't make make the point, the author did.
I was just sharing the article because there is a lot of french bashing on this forum. I thought this might serve as a good counter-balance. |
Of course, there are many great things about France besides good cheese and wine. There is the fact that you can have more than one choice when voting. They push for integration while being against prejudice for example as seen with the head scarf ban.
They may have deen a better job at integrating North Africans than England did with the Pakistanis, but their job was a little easier since they really worked on setting up lots of French schools in their colonies and many of the North Africans were citizens at one time and so were their children.
Another positive thing about France as told to me by an American military type who works in intelligence that no matter what some may say about the French, the president got it right on the war; Bush did not at all. |
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