Korean Job Discussion Forums

[rhinocharge64]

Hi, if it's possible could a person, or persons provide an answer to the following question: why do we not put a comma after the conjunctive adverbs so and otherwise. I know they are the exception to the rule, but the reason being is a complete mystery to me.


Thanks to all in advance.

The Charge.

[rhinocharge64]

I guess there is no answer to this question. If you do know, then an answer would be thoroughly appreciated.


The charge

[kimchi story]

Man, I got kinda worked up about this one. I went to a few good sites and all I found, at best, was a confirmation of the rule. Often the exception is left out entirely. A student who is smart enough to ask that particular question might just be imaginative enough to accept 'it's the exception that proves the rule' as an answer.

I found the following site to be pretty interesting, but the answer to your question remains elusive to me:
http://grammar.uoregon.edu/conjunctions/conjunctive.html

[rhinocharge64]

Cheers Kimchi story, I sincerely thank you for showing interest in this post. Yep, the student is smart, and I do think he will have the imagination to accept that's the rule. In class yesterday I did explain that was the rule, and that was the key learning point. I do, however, have very smart students who consistently ask tricky questions, and this is yet another example.

Thanks once again-The Charge.

[robot]

it's better to just use it as a conjunction, forgetting its adverbiality.

therefore a comma fits instead:

The best candidate for the job missed her flight, so we will postpone the interviews until tomorrow.

don't worry about it being a comma splice; the second sentence is not independent because of "so", which is only a conjunction.

this advice from the website (which is usually an awesome site) seems sketchy:

"Remember, for SO to be a subordinating conjunction the meaning must be IN ORDER THAT or WITH THE PURPOSE THAT. To be a coordinating conjunction SO must mean DURING THE TIME THAT. When the meaning of SO is THEREFORE, it is a conjunctive adverb."

and means in addition to; but means however -- yet the grammatical use of these are totally different. while the site's advice is true, this rule seems dated.

to simplify, consider F.A.N.B.O.Y.S.... a stuffy old grammar rule that's still moderately useful.

for - and - nor - but - or - yet - so: 7 words that cannot begin sentence formally. and thus cannot have semicolons before them. good rule for essays, though FANBOYS are fine for conversation and newspapers and less formal writing -- a dying rule itself.

korean speakers commonly have problems sticking a comma in front of all these coordinators, not just so...

ROBT.

[faster]

the 7 FANBOYS can be used to begin sentences, and are especially useful to unclog long additive strings:

Bryan brought chicken and beer, Mark brought a potato and a fork, Eddie brought noodles, Ryan brought an inflatable goat, and Matilda brought an industrial-sized tube of butter-flavored Crisco and a box of apricot stones. And nobody was the least bit surprised by Aaron's absence.

And for what it's worth, the College Board, US Admissions departments, and AP Test scorers all accept sentences like the one you're reading now.

[gsxr750r]

This is a cool thread.

[robot]

FANBOYS are also awesome for compounding.

First the's the work of owning a dog. Then there's the cost. And the danger.

The problem with these words isn't when you use them for effect, as you and I are doing.

The problem's when they're a crutch: for example, when kids overuse them in 6-word-long sentences, resulting in lack of syntactic diversity. Or when they rely too much on FANBOYS words instead of other higher-level conjunctive adverbs.

They definitely liven things up, though -- I teach this usage as a "level 2" kinda thing once my writing students have mastered the basics.

ROBT.

[The Cosmic Hum]

hmm...I would also like some more information on this subject.
rhinocharge64...would you mind posting a couple of example sentences as to your original question.
I may have an answer, but I am not sure it is what you are looking for.

[rhinocharge64]

Thanks to all who have shown an interest in this particular thread. Cosmic Hum here are a few examples:

Football is my favourite sport; however, golf is where I excel. The conjunctive adverb 'however' needs a comma after it, and therefore is correct.

However, 'so' in the following example is incorrect: The best candidate for the job missed her flight; so, we wil postpone the interviews until tomorrow. My perspective is that 'so' is part of the second complete thought, and thus there is no need for a comma.

Another example: Tell the man to hurry up; otherwise, he will be late. Am I right in thinking that 'otherwise' is part of the second complete thought and thus a comma is not needed.

I'm unsure, and slightly confused. All I know is that 'so', and 'otherwise' do not require a comma when they are conjunctive adverbs.

If you have anything to offer Cosmic Hum, then it would be thorougly appreciated.

Kind regards- The Charge

[antoniothegreat]

i thought because was included in the FANBOYS category...
am i wrong?

[The Cosmic Hum]

[antoniothegreat]

[Hotpants]

I've taught whole classes on this, and the summary that I've come up with is:

FANBOYS are co-ordinators, connecting clauses. If the 2 clauses either side are INDEPENDENT CLAUSES - ie, contain both a subject and a verb, then you need a comma before the co-ordinators. No subject, no comma.

Words like HOWEVER, MOREOVER, THEREFORE, OTHERWISE... are known as CONJUNCTIVE ADVERBS. Again, if both clauses either side contain subject and verb, then you need a semi-colon before the conjunctive adverb and a comma afterwards.

But...I've always wondered why native speakers never include the semi-colon????

[antoniothegreat]