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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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 Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:05 am Post subject: Oil--price and supply |
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http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/08/18/MTFH69017_2005-08-18_13-53-52_SCH850008.html
Judging by our atmosphere, it's unfortunate that Big Oil and car manufacturers have had this planet in such a death grip for so long. Hopefully that's about to change 
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World running out of time for oil alternatives
Aug 18 9:45 AM US/Eastern
By Anna Mudeva
PETTEN, Netherlands (Reuters) - The world could run out of time to develop cleaner alternatives to oil and other fossil fuels before depletion drives prices through the roof, a leading Dutch energy researcher said on Thursday.
Ton Hoff, manager of the Energy Research Center of the Netherlands, said it could take decades to make alternatives affordable to the point where they can be used widely, although high oil prices were already stimulating such research.
"If we run out of fossil fuels -- by the time the oil price hits 100 dollars or plus, people will be screaming for alternatives, but whether they will be available at that moment of time -- that's my biggest worry," Hoff said.
"That's why we need to use fossil fuels in a more efficient way to have some more time to develop these alternatives up to a level where the robustness is guaranteed and their price has come down ... This could take decades for some technologies."
Stubbornly high oil prices have renewed worldwide interest in sustainable energy sources, such as solar, wind and biomass as well as biofuels.
But the world currently covers just some two percent of its energy needs with renewables as high costs and mixed policy initiatives hinder a wide-spread usage.
"The high oil price makes people at least think about alternatives ... For us it's a definitely a stimulus to work even harder than before," Hoff said.
LOWERING COSTS
ECN, one of Europe's leading energy research institutes, is working to improve or develop new technologies to boost efficiency and lower the costs of power production from wind, solar and biomass, he said.
ECN researchers are trying to raise the energy conversion efficiency of solar panels to above 20 percent from the current 17 percent, while reducing costs.
"In 10-15 years, I expect that solar energy conversion could be in competition with electricity produced from coal," Hoff said. He believes the Netherlands has the potential to cover a large part of its power needs with solar energy.
ECN is also researching to increase the size of wind power turbines from the 3 megawatt a turbine produces now to 5 or 6 MW. This could be done by raising the height to 100 meters from 70 now and enlarging wings span to 120 meters from 90, he said.
ECN is also part of the $225 million "Global Climate and Energy Project" led by the U.S. University of Stanford and financed by General Electric, Toyota, Schlumberger and ExxonMobil.
The project aims to crack new technologies on fuel cells, which make electricity from hydrogen and emit only water vapor, energy production from biomass and separation and storage of carbon dioxide (CO2). The greenhouse CO2 gas is released when burning fossil fuels and is blamed for global warming.
Under the project, ECN will develop a new type of membrane reactor, which will separate CO2 during the process of producing hydrogen from fossil fuels, Hoff said. The CO2 could later be stored by companies in depleted gas or oil fields.
Hoff and other researchers say a transition to the so-called hydrogen economy could take decades as the cost of building new hydrogen-burning cars and power plants and storing CO2 are huge.
To test hydrogen usage in real life, ECN is in talks with the northern Dutch island of Texel to install hydrogen-based facilities, which would supply electricity to homes and offices.
"The idea is to see the pitfalls, fix them ... and prepare for the future. My hopes are that this will stimulate the usage of this type of new technology because it is extremely important to have it in real life rather than in laboratories," Hoff said.
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:09 am Post subject: |
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People only do things when they have to, and usually when its too late. Human nature.
Fossil fuels is no different.
What I predict though, is that the Arab/Islamic world which controls the energy supply to the west, (in the form of oil) will deliberately withold it to force EU political intervention on "resolution" of the Arab Israeli conflict. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| FYI, Brazil managed to become self-sufficient in energy by using sugar cane and other natural resources prevelant in brazil for car fuel. the united states and the west could do the same if they put their minds to it. |
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sonofthedarkstranger
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:26 am Post subject: |
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What other resources? Or are you saying they've gone entirly over to biodiesel? (Which is usually mixed with petroleum, no?)
My understanding is that to rely COMPLETELY on vegetable matter for fuel would require a massive investment in agriculture--more space, more cultivation, just more agriculture.
Proponents of hemp power say that if the US were to rely on hemp for its sole power source, 6% of the US land area (roughly equal to the size of Texas) would need to be given over to this enterprise. Anything less than that and we'd still need to use at least some petroleum.
I don't really believe that all the leftover vegetable oil from restaurants nationwide are a viable power source, although it'd be fine as a supplement. Same goes for windpower, solar--they just don't provide the same kind of power and oomph that petroleum does.
I think given the bottomless (and growing) energy needs of our society, there may be no real viable alternative to petroleum except perhaps nuclear power, which is obviously an unpalatable option. (Nuclear fusion would be nice). Either that or simply scale back our consumption--which is unrealistic to hope for. That won't happen until people are forced to cut back--i.e. nothing left to burn. |
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sonofthedarkstranger
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
What I predict though, is that the Arab/Islamic world which controls the energy supply to the west, (in the form of oil) will deliberately withold it to force EU political intervention on "resolution" of the Arab Israeli conflict.
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You mean by crippling thier own economy? |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sonofthedarkstranger wrote: |
What other resources? Or are you saying they've gone entirly over to biodiesel? (Which is usually mixed with petroleum, no?)
My understanding is that to rely COMPLETELY on vegetable matter for fuel would require a massive investment in agriculture--more space, more cultivation, just more agriculture.
Proponents of hemp power say that if the US were to rely on hemp for its sole power source, 6% of the US land area (roughly equal to the size of Texas) would need to be given over to this enterprise. Anything less than that and we'd still need to use at least some petroleum.
I don't really believe that all the leftover vegetable oil from restaurants nationwide are a viable power source, although it'd be fine as a supplement. Same goes for windpower, solar--they just don't provide the same kind of power and oomph that petroleum does.
I think given the bottomless (and growing) energy needs of our society, there may be no real viable alternative to petroleum except perhaps nuclear power, which is obviously an unpalatable option. (Nuclear fusion would be nice). Either that or simply scale back our consumption--which is unrealistic to hope for. That won't happen until people are forced to cut back--i.e. nothing left to burn. |
Sorry, I'll clarify: Brazilian fuel is both petroleum and sugar cane. |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Bucheon Bum wrote:
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the united states and the west could do the same if they put their minds to it.
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There's the rub.
Sonofthedarkstranger wrote:
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My understanding is that to rely COMPLETELY on vegetable matter for fuel would require a massive investment in agriculture--more space, more cultivation, just more agriculture.
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Actually, no. Iogen Canada is using a natural-occurring enzyme found in a cow's stomach which can be replicated and used to turn old agricultural/forestry leftovers into mush that allows the ethanol to be extracted/produced at a cheaper price than oil. Old corn stalks, wood chips, grass etc etc.
This is very unlike growing corn for the purpose of extracting ethanol, which is wasteful.
Problem is the Big Interests (read: shareholders) don't have much interest in converting the entire supply chain right down to cars, which would cost them trillions. Some of them have seen the writing on the wall however:
http://www.iogen.ca
1 cow produces enough methane in a year to power the basic heating/cooking needs for a family of 4. Mooooo! |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| canuckistan wrote: |
| 1 cow produces enough methane in a year to power the basic heating/cooking needs for a family of 4. Mooooo! |
But who's going to be the one to stick the hose up that poor cow's ass, Mooooooooooo indeed! |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| You mean by crippling thier own economy? |
Embargos are not unheard of.
Neither is political chaos. One king of Saudi was assassinated. One well-placed suicide bomber could decapitate the Kingdom, and if that were coordinated with a few others, Saudi oil could become scarce overnight. Seymour Hersh, a journalist, says Iran is talking to Venequela. The implication is obvious.
As I said a week or so ago, we have had 30 years to get ready and that time was essentially wasted.
PS: Question for the car drivers in Korea: what's the price of gas now? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Cost Highest gas prices in Europe
Prices converted into $/gallon
Netherlands $6.77
Norway $6.56
Denmark $6.29
Belgium $6.02
UK $6.02 |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8994313/ |
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canuckistan
Mod Team
Joined: 17 Jun 2003
Location: Training future GS competitors.....
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| bignate wrote: |
| canuckistan wrote: |
| 1 cow produces enough methane in a year to power the basic heating/cooking needs for a family of 4. Mooooo! |
But who's going to be the one to stick the hose up that poor cow's ass, Mooooooooooo indeed! |
Not meeee! Seriously though, you can build a methane collector you just pitch the manure into-- has a floating parabolic lid to collect it. Problem is, if you don't build it right it's really easy to blow yourself up  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| anyone see Mad Max II? |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| anyone see Mad Max II? |
Or even Mad Max (III) Beyond Thunderdome - "Not s.hit, e-ner-gy!" |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I think I meant mad max three. |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| I think I meant mad max three. |
lol  
Couldn't resist Joo, sorry man.......  |
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