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gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Location: city of paper
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:11 pm Post subject: What was the purpose of 9/11? |
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I'm likely covering old ground, and silly question perhaps, but I find it quite interesting that there seems to be only limited consensus on the primary purpose of the 9/11 attacks.
Off the top of my head there seem to be three plausible main reasons:
1. Kill and frighten lots of Americans - which is, I guess, consistent with the "they hate our freedom" analysis of the attacks
2. To pressure the West to accede to al Qaeda political demands - Israel and Palestine, US off Arabian penninsula etc, see here
3. To precipitate overt conflict between the West and Islam - in the process radicalising moderate Muslims and creating global jihad
Of course there's lots of potential for overlap between these, but if we had to answer the question "why the 9/11 attacks?" what do you think the best single answer would be? This seems to me to be particularly important because those that give most weight to (2) are likely to have very different opinions about appropriate actions to those - such as myself - who are inclined towards (3).
Oh, and no doubt I've massively oversimplified this, so if anyone has any extra purposes or would like to comment, feel free. I would like to add, however, if you believe that the US government had any conscious involvement in the attacks, do not post here. You conspiracy softheads have enough threads as it is. |
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Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: What was the purpose of 9/11? |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| "they hate our freedom" analysis of the attacks. |
western propoganda.
What they hate is western arrogance and hypocrisy, especially when they have to pay the price for it.
There is a reason the west has enemies, a cause. Osama used to be an ally, remember? It was US policies that pis*ed him off. |
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Big_Bird

Joined: 31 Jan 2003 Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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3 always struck me as the number one reason. A typical terrorist strategy is to attack in order to provoke a bigger attack that kills innocents among your own group. Members of your group (i.e. in this case muslims or Arabs) who were not interested in your cause or conflict before, and were getting on happilly with their day to day lives, become enraged and radicalised, and voila, you've got a whole lot more people with you.
Retaliating with military force seemed to be the worse response we could have made. It was just what they were hoping for, and seems to have served their cause as far as radicalising more muslims than ever. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| They do hate our freedoms (by they, I mean the islamic lunatics) but that wasn't why they attacked the USA. They attacked the USA to "push the infidel from the land of mecca" first and foremost. After that, OBL wants to reestablish the islamic empire, kill all the Jews, overthrow the Saudi government and finish off his ideological islamic enemies. |
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gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Location: city of paper
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| They attacked the USA to "push the infidel from the land of mecca" first and foremost. |
Sure, but how does flying planes into buildings achieve this? I mean, they presumably weren't so naive to think that the US would withdraw from the Middle East on account of a few thousand dead, right?
Last edited by gang ah jee on Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| To precipitate overt conflict between the West and Islam... |
Lacking direct evidence on bin Laden's actual motives, but knowing what I know about guerrilla ops, I have always speculated this motive.
Classic provocation. "Unmask the gorillas and unite the people," as Guevara described it in his manual. Saddam attempted the same thing, by the way, using Israel as his device during the Gulf War.
In any case, bin Laden and company probably did their cultural equivalent of the high-five when America invaded the Middle East...
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Didn't it work?
I'm only quoting from the horses mouth. OBL said that was his reason for it, and I take him at his word.
Maybe he thought that the Americans would not be able to take a bloody nose (like in Somalia) and leave the area? I dunno. Can we really ascribe logic and reason to such a religious person? Maybe god told him to? It worked for Bush. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Can we really ascribe logic and reason to such a religious person...? |
Good point. Additional cause to continue to call my speculation "speculative."
And, Big_Bird: sorry. One does not turn one's cheek to such an attack. Projecting indecision and/or weakness would likely have led to worse results than what we now see.
As for myself, I simply would have carpet-nuked Afghanistan, salted the earth there, and then asked Iran, Syria, and, at the time, Lybia, "Any more takers...? No...? Then this shit stops now." No imperialism, no costly occupations, just a straightforward, unequivocal punitive operation.
Y ya se acab�.
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:45 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
And, Big_Bird: sorry. One does not turn one's cheek to such an attack. Projecting indecision and/or weakness would likely have led to worse results than what we now see.
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While I wouldn't have 'carpet nuked' I would have dealt with the Taliban without these kid gloves. The Americans are such a strange people sometimes. This backwards group of thugs attacks the USA and the response is "lets give them democracy". I'd have demanded OBL and his thugs heads on silver plates and been relentless in destroying the state if I didn't get them. No democracy building from me.
Anyways, back to the OP.
I do believe that the #1 reason was to remove the US from Saudi. OBL apparently gets much of his anger from the "house of saud" reigning over the land of mecca. |
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Sincinnatislink

Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Location: Top secret.
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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#3 is the only answer someone as bright as Osama Bin Laden (assuming he was responsible) would seriously try.
No, that aside does not mean I am a 9/11 truth person. |
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gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Location: city of paper
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Didn't it work? |
Well, for one it depends what you consider 'the land of Mecca' to mean. I understand that Arabs haven't historically been much for British-drawn borders, so I doubt he meant the political entity 'Saudi Arabia'. Thus, if he meant traditional Arab lands, then we'd probably have to conclude that 9/11 was a failure in terms of its objectives.
| BJWD wrote: |
I'm only quoting from the horses mouth. OBL said that was his reason for it, and I take him at his word.
Maybe he thought that the Americans would not be able to take a bloody nose (like in Somalia) and leave the area? I dunno. Can we really ascribe logic and reason to such a religious person? Maybe god told him to? It worked for Bush. |
Perhaps... but presumably you don't take Bush at his word, and you don't believe that the Bush administration runs exclusively on divine inspiration. I think it would be a massive mistake to underestimate bin Laden - he was trained by the best, after all. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:51 pm Post subject: |
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1) That is fair. But remember that he wants to resetabilsh the islamic empire. Saud is but one of many problem governments and also the one that hosts mecca and medina.
2) Very true. There are always many reasons. We often don't know why we do things, do we? Why did I post this?
I think that god played a role in Bush's decision. Actually, I don't think that Bush knew why he did it. His handlers made the decision and how he justified it to himself I don't know. Obviously, clearly, of course! it was about OIL. |
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Sincinnatislink

Joined: 30 Jan 2007 Location: Top secret.
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| You were kidding on the oil part, right? |
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seoulunitarian

Joined: 06 Jul 2004
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: What was the purpose of 9/11? |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
I'm likely covering old ground, and silly question perhaps, but I find it quite interesting that there seems to be only limited consensus on the primary purpose of the 9/11 attacks.
Off the top of my head there seem to be three plausible main reasons:
1. Kill and frighten lots of Americans - which is, I guess, consistent with the "they hate our freedom" analysis of the attacks
2. To pressure the West to accede to al Qaeda political demands - Israel and Palestine, US off Arabian penninsula etc, see here
3. To precipitate overt conflict between the West and Islam - in the process radicalising moderate Muslims and creating global jihad
Of course there's lots of potential for overlap between these, but if we had to answer the question "why the 9/11 attacks?" what do you think the best single answer would be? This seems to me to be particularly important because those that give most weight to (2) are likely to have very different opinions about appropriate actions to those - such as myself - who are inclined towards (3).
Oh, and no doubt I've massively oversimplified this, so if anyone has any extra purposes or would like to comment, feel free. I would like to add, however, if you believe that the US government had any conscious involvement in the attacks, do not post here. You conspiracy softheads have enough threads as it is. |
I'm going for the deeper (way deeper) purpose here, but I believe it happened on a fundamental level because the souls of those who died (and the souls of the attackers) pre-ordained that it happen before their physical incarnation as part of the process in their karmic development. But I have what most would consider a whack idea of the karmic system, and have come to see any actions as strictly amoral.
Peace |
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gang ah jee

Joined: 14 Jan 2003 Location: city of paper
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Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 11:37 pm Post subject: Re: What was the purpose of 9/11? |
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| seoulunitarian wrote: |
| I'm going for the deeper (way deeper) purpose here, but I believe it happened on a fundamental level because the souls of those who died (and the souls of the attackers) pre-ordained that it happen before their physical incarnation as part of the process in their karmic development. But I have what most would consider a whack idea of the karmic system, and have come to see any actions as strictly amoral. |
Oh, I think we can all agree that this was a given.
| BJWD wrote: |
| 1) That is fair. But remember that he wants to resetabilsh the islamic empire. Saud is but one of many problem governments and also the one that hosts mecca and medina. |
Yes, but while there are no longer US troops in Saudi, the Saud regime is still firmly in place, and there are infidel troops all over the region. If the objective was (2) then it's more or less a failure - unless all he wanted was US troops off Saudi soil, which seems like a pretty lame goal to me.
At the same time, however, Muslims and Westerners are angrier at and more frightened of each other than they probably have ever been since the Crusades, the secular Baathists are out of the picture and equipment for producing chemical and biological weapons has been looted from 80s era Iraqi military installations. If bin Laden wasn't intending this kind of outcome, he must be pretty damn pleased with his luck. |
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