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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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 Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: FUN WITH HILLARY AND BARACK |
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Step right up, ladies and gentlemen, the Hillary and Barack Show has begun. Bring the grannies and the popcorn.
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Obama, Clinton rivalry flares over donor
By NEDRA PICKLER and BRENDAN RILEY, A.P. Feb. 22, 2007
The rival presidential campaigns of Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama (news, bio, voting record) traded accusations of nasty politics Wednesday over Hollywood donor David Geffen, who once backed Bill Clinton but now supports his wife's top rival. The Clinton campaign demanded that Obama denounce comments made by the DreamWorks movie studio founder, who told New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd in Wednesday's editions that while "everybody in politics lies," the former president and his wife "do it with such ease, it's troubling."The Clinton camp also called on Obama to give back Geffen's $2,300 contribution�. In the newspaper interview, Geffen also said Bill Clinton is "a reckless guy" and he does not think Hillary Clinton can bring the country together during a time of war, no matter how smart or ambitious she is. Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs added another criticism of Clinton."It is also ironic that Senator Clinton lavished praise on Monday and is fully willing to accept today the support of South Carolina state Sen. Robert Ford, who said if Barack Obama were to win the nomination, he would drag down the rest of the Democratic Party because 'he's black,'" Gibbs' statement said. |
This is going to be so much fun. Hillary will have her liberal temperament tested to the limit trying to avoid appearing even remotely racist while Barack will struggle to present himself as the new Bobby Kennedy.
And the juicy tidbits from former supporters like Geffen are sure to vindicate those of us who've been saying the same thing for years about the Clintons but were casually dismissed as right wing idealogues. Gee, why is it that so many Clinton backers are now backing away?
And Obama has all the experience of a George W. Bush when he headed into national politics in 2000. But because he's black and cool he'll get a pass on that from the leftwing of his party. But it will catch up with him after the primaries, which the leftwing of the Democratic Party controls.
I can only conjecture what the next little spat will be about. Anyone else have a guess? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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And Obama has all the experience of a George W. Bush when he headed into national politics in 2000. But because he's black and cool he'll get a pass on that from the leftwing of his party. But it will catch up with him after the primaries, which the leftwing of the Democratic Party controls.
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I don't think the main objection to Bush circa 2000 was that he didn't have experience. I think the objection was that he didn't have sufficient intellect for the office. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: ... |
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| But it will catch up with him after the primaries, which the leftwing of the Democratic Party controls. |
SO IT WAS "THE LEFT WING" THAT FIELDED KERRY IN 2004? |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:47 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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And Obama has all the experience of a George W. Bush when he headed into national politics in 2000. But because he's black and cool he'll get a pass on that from the leftwing of his party. But it will catch up with him after the primaries, which the leftwing of the Democratic Party controls.
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I don't think the main objection to Bush circa 2000 was that he didn't have experience. I think the objection was that he didn't have sufficient intellect for the office. |
Not to mention the whole "evil" thing. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:21 am Post subject: |
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twg:
Tell me, thou leftist wag, what is so offensive about describing North Korea and Iran as evil, or are you also an apologist for these authoritarian regimes just because they're anti-American? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
twg:
Tell me, thou leftist wag, what is so offensive about describing North Korea and Iran as evil, or are you also an apologist for these authoritarian regimes just because they're anti-American? |
Same problem with Clinton labelling Serbia; it makes a negotiated settlement more difficult, not least because you've insulted those within the countries sympathetic to you based on their nationality. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
| Tell me, thou leftist wag, what is so offensive about describing North Korea and Iran as evil, or are you also an apologist for these authoritarian regimes just because they're anti-American? |
I think our angry, leftist friend might have referred to W. Bush's evil nature and not W. Bush's calling the Axis of Evil "the Axis of Evil."
Kuros mentions Clinton and Serbia. I would add Khomeini's "Great Satan," Pyongyang's "evil," and Chavez's "the Devil/the Evil Empire" to that list -- not to mention Reagan's earlier "Evil Empire."
On people's use of "evil" concepts in politics: I (attempted to) exchanged views on this issue with a very, very leftist professor a week or so ago. W. Bush's evil nature, "Gates is a fucking sleezeball" (I am quoting the professor), and "what really happened on 9/11" came up in one of his lectures to undergrads, and I challenged him on it after he dismissed the class.
I did not understand how when teaching we can release our passions and fob off our worldviews onto a class of one-hundred or so undergrads and then test them on it. Was this not political indoctrination? On the point treating the rhetoric and its consequences I wanted to get across, I brought up people's calling W. Bush "the antichrist" and he responded "there you go!" So I asked whether he believed W. Bush featured a 666 birthmark, marking him the Son of the Fallen One, or that his presidency presaged the End of the World and the Second Coming. He said no but that was not the point. And he correctly stressed "academic freedom." He would say whatever he wanted in lecture, thank you very much.
So that was that. I only wish people would tone down their rhetoric and get their feet on the ground. In addition to Kuros's point about putting someone you might want to negotiate with on the defensive, this hypercharged "Great Satan" imagery and rhetoric functions as sauce for the goose where religious extremists are concerned and will lead to nothing constructive...
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: ... |
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| Who called the US "Great Satan" and when? |
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W.T.Carl
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Iran, when that moron Carter was in the Whitehouse. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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Kuros:
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| Same problem with Clinton labelling Serbia; it makes a negotiated settlement more difficult, not least because you've insulted those within the countries sympathetic to you based on their nationality. |
I think you're fishing for a red herring. Just what voices of moderation of concern would have been offended in North Korea, especially given the lack of media? How much press freedom exists in Iran? C'mon, are you kidding me?
In the world some things are evil; it is not always cultural relative as many would like to believe. And we all know that Bush was referring to the regimes in these nations, not their citizens at large. His comments were exploited for political gain despite the Democrats insist.
That said, those regimes were portraying us as evil long before we said it. If you want to say it gave them excuse to demonize us too, you first need to account for this fact. |
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ED209
Joined: 17 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| So let's all back Biden then. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Kuros:
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| Same problem with Clinton labelling Serbia; it makes a negotiated settlement more difficult, not least because you've insulted those within the countries sympathetic to you based on their nationality. |
I think you're fishing for a red herring. Just what voices of moderation of concern would have been offended in North Korea, especially given the lack of media? How much press freedom exists in Iran? C'mon, are you kidding me?
In the world some things are evil; it is not always cultural relative as many would like to believe. And we all know that Bush was referring to the regimes in these nations, not their citizens at large. His comments were exploited for political gain despite the Democrats insist.
That said, those regimes were portraying us as evil long before we said it. If you want to say it gave them excuse to demonize us too, you first need to account for this fact. |
There is not much to be worried about in terms of offending the average North Korean given the [edit] lack of [end edit] press freedom.
In Iran a great deal of private homes have satellites, and the internet is also prevalent. Right now I am in a country that censors its internet. I should say it tries to censor its internet. I am able to access all kinds of information relatively easily.
I am actually a huge fan of Bush's foreign policy with North Korea. In North Korea's case, perhaps Bush should not have accused the regime of being evil. He did. I am not losing sleep over it.
The reason I brought up Clinton as an example was to show I am not trying to just criticize Bush. And lastly, I am not arguing at all that the North Korean regime or the Iranian regime is not evil. Just that we stop short of calling a press conference to announce that we think they are so. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:42 am Post subject: |
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I think you're fishing for a red herring. Just what voices of moderation of concern would have been offended in North Korea, especially given the lack of media? How much press freedom exists in Iran? C'mon, are you kidding me?
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It seems to me that similar remarks could have been made about China during the Cultural Revolution. But then you never know what's gonna happen a few years down the road.
I don't think Kuros, or anyone else, would say that North Korea is neccessarily brimming over with idealistic reformers lookin' to shake things up. Although I also don't really see how Steve McGarrett can categorically deny that such elements might exist in North Korea, biding their time while waiting for the right opportunity to push forward. And I don't think that the media is censored for upper party members to the same degree that it is for the hoi poloi. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: |
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On the other hand:
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| It seems to me that similar remarks could have been made about China during the Cultural Revolution. But then you never know what's gonna happen a few years down the road. |
We don't have a few years to engage in meaningless dialogue with an Islamofascist state. And Mao, unlike Mr. A., didn't threaten to use nukes against his neighbors.
You're rationalizing on the DPRK. If the military, as in Thailand, was brewing up a coup, it would have happened during the worst of the famine a few years back. |
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