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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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 Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:26 am Post subject: |
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The one underneath it is called the "Great round earth swindle". Also the "great gravity hoax'.
get with it dude...  |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Did you watch it? |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Give me the name and research citations of ten legitimate scientists who have done anything substantive to prove global warmiong is not heavily influenced by mankind.
FYI: that means provide the sources of their funding, too. Exxon has been playing long and hard at lying about this issue. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Talk about a black and white narrative.
Those who say global warming happening = good.
Those who say global warming not happening = Exxon.
Did you grow up in a religious home, EFL?
Either way, your welcome to do the research yourself. I posted a documentary and you are free to watch it if you want. If you don't, then stay out of the thread. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:57 am Post subject: |
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The consensus among leading scientists is there is a high probability global warming is both real and caused by man. Climate is not an easy thing to predict, ultimately. Its subset we call "weather" we use super computers and still are lucky to get a 3-day forecast that's accurate.
Look at global warming as a medical diagnosis. This is not always an exact science either. However, if 1000 doctors say you have cancer and 4 say you don't have cancer, what is the rational thing to do? Go with the overwhelming consensus and take steps assuming you have cancer? Or do nothing? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:07 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough MM2. But GW, should it exist, is one of many problems our world faces. We have to prioritize our problems, and allocate funds accordingly.
Al Gore's suggestions of falling icebergs and melting this and that aren't supported even in the UN climate report. It was hyperbole for the sake of hyperbole. It will not happen.
Better, we ought to invest in technology that will limit pollution of all kinds, while not overreacting and slowing global economic growth, which is both the most likely outcome and worst possible outcome of all this nonsense.
In my mind, the best public policy solutions are 1) tax incentives for energy efficient cars 2) a heavy set of gas taxes, that will increase by stated amounts every year 3) the proceeds of these taxes dumped into those universities that are on the cutting edge of energy conservation/green technology. Other public policy ideas are out there too.
I do not believe we have a useful framework for climate change, or that scientists really have a grasp on what is going on. But, I also believe that pollution is bad, and finding innovative ways to lessen it is in all of our best interests. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:08 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Talk about a black and white narrative.
Those who say global warming happening = good.
Those who say global warming not happening = Exxon.
Did you grow up in a religious home, EFL?
Either way, your welcome to do the research yourself. I posted a documentary and you are free to watch it if you want. If you don't, then stay out of the thread. |
Can you please explain to me how you so easily dismiss the recent report and the upcoming one? On what basis do you do so? On what basis do you put the findings of nobody you can name against a world-wide group of thousands of scientists?
As for your par-for-your-course comments above: you're a fucking idiot. Nowhere did I state what you stated. The point is simple: show me ten legitimate scientists with published, peer reviewed work that WAS NOT supported by Exxon.
Did you even bother growing up, BJ?
Explain or shut up.
Last edited by EFLtrainer on Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Fair enough MM2. But GW, should it exist, is one of many problems our world faces. We have to prioritize our problems, and allocate funds accordingly. |
Fair enough. Now on to the stupidity:
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| Al Gore's suggestions of falling icebergs and melting this and that aren't supported even in the UN climate report. It was hyperbole for the sake of hyperbole. It will not happen. |
So, the ice isn't melting? Arctic sea ice ISN'T less and less as time goes on? Greenland's ice isn't thinning? Polar bears haven't lost numbers and about a third of their average weight? The snows on Kilimanjaro aren't receding?
It is all supported in the climate report. Your lies here - I would call them claims, but they are not. All of the effects you claim don't exist are well-documented - are relying on the DIFFERENCE between a private citizen presenting evidence of real events vs. a scientist PROVING events in a scientific paper. They are constrained by the rules of science. They can't say anything with force until they are certain of it and can prove it. However, things can be proven only AFTER THE fACT, not before. Thus, science is always late to the table. In SOLVING/PREVENTING problems, one has to be able to see AND ACT ahead of the curve.
Your claims are flat lies.
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| Better, we ought to invest in technology that will limit pollution of all kinds, while not overreacting and slowing global economic growth, which is both the most likely outcome and worst possible outcome of all this nonsense. |
Developing new energy infrastructure and resources will provide plenty of jobs... and plenty we have never dreamed of. The claim that getting off of oil will bankrupt us is bullshit. Global warming efforts WILL NOT slow down the growth engine. It will actually enhance future growth by preventing massive disruptions to human lives and production.
See Louisiana, New Orleans for an example of what you are suggesting we do.
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| In my mind, the best public policy solutions are 1) tax incentives for energy efficient cars 2) a heavy set of gas taxes, that will increase by stated amounts every year 3) the proceeds of these taxes dumped into those universities that are on the cutting edge of energy conservation/green technology. Other public policy ideas are out there too. |
Beautiful: the poor and middle class pay for the research the disgustingly wealthy oil companies should have been doing all along.
The research is already out there. There are air cars, fan turbine cars, water-burning cars, etc.,e tc. There is wind power, bio-diesel, solar, etc. We don't NEED oil; we simply haven't been allowed to change.
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| I do not believe we have a useful framework for climate change, or that scientists really have a grasp on what is going on. |
Explain this idiocy. The report recently put out said nothing? The one reported on today says nothing?
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| But, I also believe that pollution is bad, and finding innovative ways to lessen it is in all of our best interests. |
Pollution is bad, but the Earth's ecology is fine!!
Gee, what a comfy place your head must be. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Bad day, efl? Maybe all the hot air in our world is being stored in your conspiratorial little mind?
The documentary is quite good. Give it a watch, and then post here what you think of it. They have scientists from MIT, the University of London and many others..
Me, well, I'm off to the market to spend the cheque that Exxon gives me for changing the mind of those who read eslcafe. Maybe I will pick up some tinfoil.. I can mail it to you up there in Korea, if you are running out. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:41 am Post subject: |
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So, the ice isn't melting? Arctic sea ice ISN'T less and less as time goes on? Greenland's ice isn't thinning? Polar bears haven't lost numbers and about a third of their average weight? The snows on Kilimanjaro aren't receding? |
He considers Antarctica the canary in the mine, but again doesn't tell the full story. He presents pictures from the 2% of Antarctica that is dramatically warming and ignores the 98% that has largely cooled over the past 35 years. The U.N. panel estimates that Antarctica will actually increase its snow mass this century.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009552
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| Your claims are flat lies. |
I know you are but what am I? How to respond...
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Developing new energy infrastructure and resources will provide plenty of jobs... and plenty we have never dreamed of. The claim that getting off of oil will bankrupt us is *beep*. Global warming efforts WILL NOT slow down the growth engine. It will actually enhance future growth by preventing massive disruptions to human lives and production. |
Well, I don't think you really understand this. It really depends on what measures are put in place, and how they are paid for. I have a feeling I will hit a wall if I try to discuss this with you.
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See Louisiana, New Orleans for an example of what you are suggesting we do. |
Actually, it is the opposite of that. The levees that burst were substandard and kept that way because environmental groups (namely Save Our WetLands (SOWL) sued the state to stop levee improvements so as to protect the natural habitat of some species.
Add to this that there is fully zero evidence that green house grasses in any way affect hurricanes, be it there strength or the frequency of their occurrence, and I think your example is weak, at very best.
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Beautiful: the poor and middle class pay for the research the disgustingly wealthy oil companies should have been doing all along. |
So, tax the oil companies eh? What do you think would be the outcome of this. I want to see your mind work here... If governments tax oil companies the result will be.....???
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| Gee, what a comfy place your head must be. |
Indeed it is. I think outside and inside of various paradigms. I try as hard as I can not to adopt full-scale the beliefs of one particular group. I want evidence. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
Al Gore's suggestions of falling icebergs and melting this and that aren't supported even in the UN climate report. It was hyperbole for the sake of hyperbole. It will not happen.
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I think one of the problems with the GW side is, yes, there is too much hollywood hype. If you believe in GW you are an anti-global trade, anti-industry, hippy. If you don't believe in GW, you're a tool of the oil companies. When Gore makes claims like "New York is hot? How can you deny global warming!" it does not help the public understanding. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
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So, the ice isn't melting? Arctic sea ice ISN'T less and less as time goes on? Greenland's ice isn't thinning? Polar bears haven't lost numbers and about a third of their average weight? The snows on Kilimanjaro aren't receding? |
He considers Antarctica the canary in the mine, but again doesn't tell the full story. He presents pictures from the 2% of Antarctica that is dramatically warming and ignores the 98% that has largely cooled over the past 35 years. The U.N. panel estimates that Antarctica will actually increase its snow mass this century.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009552 |
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| Your claims are flat lies. |
Without the time to check just now, let say only that you accuse hypocritically: Your source/you fail to acknowledge that nobody with a breain larger than a pea is claiming climate change to be consistent everywhere. Whether one area is warming or cooling is irrelevant. Good job with the lie. Fact is, the world as a whole is warming. That is what is important. Also, it doesn't matter if more snow falls this century in Antartica. What matters is how much of Antartica's ice moves from the land to the sea. But you can't be bothered with that little fact, eh? The breaking ice sheets? They hold back the ice on land. And show warming IS happening. You are taking stats for the interior (which may or may not be accurate) and claiming it PROVES something.
Gore is pointing out those factors that show the general trend. You are choosing ONE (which, again, may or may not be accurate) and making a global claim.
Foolish. This is how you and your ilk work: constant disinformation and deformation of facts.
More snow in the interior of Antarctica vs. more ice falling into the ocean. Which do you think is more salient to Bangladesh?
More snow in Antarctica or all the ice making up the glaciers of the world melting: which one is more salient to the people relying on that ice for water, tourism, etc?
Foolish. Quit wasting your energy: you are irrelevant. We've moved past the why and are on to the what. See if you can keep up. (The scientific info is nice, though. Feel free to post more links.) I will waste no more time on the why: it is known. The preponderance of info is massive. Not slight, not a lot, but MASSIVE.
If you've no thoughts on solutions, you're engaging in nothing but propaganda. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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I still think you grew up in a wildly religious household. You have all the telltale signs of it.
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| Your claims are flat lies. |
The above quote, which you attributed to me, was actually me quoting you talking about me. I, unlike you, don't suppose those who disagree with me liars. In your case specifically, I think you are just a grumpy old fool who likes to call names and talk shit.
Like I said before, all the sociologists, philosophers and English teachers of Wonderland Hagwon Suwon may agree, but the real scientists don't fully agree. You see, silly efl, science and public policy aren't like team sports where you support your side at all costs and demonize the other for no reason. You take all the evidence available to try to make an informed decision. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| You see, silly efl, science and public policy aren't like team sports where you support your side at all costs and demonize the other for no reason. You take all the evidence available to try to make an informed decision. |
So then doesn't this argue for the position that GW is, most probably, caused by human activity and government should take action? |
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