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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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 Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Pollution in China |
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I totally agree cleaning up cancer villages and keeping Chinese skies and waters from looking like a post-apocalyptic Hell on Earth should take precedence over limiting Western CO2 emissions.
That said, the Michele Bachmann "CO2 is natural and nonpoisonous" bit is pretty ridiculous. Everything is poisonous at some dose. Everything is harmful either in excess or under the right circumstances. CO2 won't be doing life as we know it much of a favor by trapping Venusian levels of heat in. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Do you think if China keeps developing at the rate it has, that middle class Chinese people will put up with this crap? As income rises, peoples tolerance of pollution goes down. It sucks now, but the situation will begin to improve, on its own, as incomes in China rise. |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Do you think if China keeps developing at the rate it has, that middle class Chinese people will put up with this crap? As income rises, peoples tolerance of pollution goes down. It sucks now, but the situation will begin to improve, on its own, as incomes in China rise. |
China is a big country. If "this crap" does not encroach onto the "middle classes" patch, then probably not. |
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Rusty Shackleford
Joined: 08 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| Axiom wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Do you think if China keeps developing at the rate it has, that middle class Chinese people will put up with this crap? As income rises, peoples tolerance of pollution goes down. It sucks now, but the situation will begin to improve, on its own, as incomes in China rise. |
China is a big country. If "this crap" does not encroach onto the "middle classes" patch, then probably not. |
So you don't think Chinese middle class people will develop a do-gooder, lefty-environmentalist, organic food eating, pseudo hippie sect, like the rest of the developed world has? |
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nautilus
Joined: 26 Nov 2005
Location: Je jump, Tu jump, oui jump!
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:00 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Do you think if China keeps developing at the rate it has, that middle class Chinese people will put up with this crap?. |
Some Chinese have gained a higher material living standard, but none have gained democratic rights.
its a bit like Korea (although worse)- democratic institutions have not developed alongside economic advancement. |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Axiom wrote: |
| Rusty Shackleford wrote: |
| Do you think if China keeps developing at the rate it has, that middle class Chinese people will put up with this crap? As income rises, peoples tolerance of pollution goes down. It sucks now, but the situation will begin to improve, on its own, as incomes in China rise. |
China is a big country. If "this crap" does not encroach onto the "middle classes" patch, then probably not. |
So you don't think Chinese middle class people will develop a do-gooder, lefty-environmentalist, organic food eating, pseudo hippie sect, like the rest of the developed world has? |
I don't think I have ever seen or read any evidence of a green movement in China. Maybe people on this forum who some experience living in China may be able highlight some. My guess is that any kind of environmental movement will probably been hijacked by this CO2 rubbish, instead of focussing on problems like those highlighted in the photographs. |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:49 am Post subject: Re: Pollution in China |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
I totally agree cleaning up cancer villages and keeping Chinese skies and waters from looking like a post-apocalyptic Hell on Earth should take precedence over limiting Western CO2 emissions.
That said, the Michele Bachmann "CO2 is natural and nonpoisonous" bit is pretty ridiculous. Everything is poisonous at some dose. Everything is harmful either in excess or under the right circumstances. CO2 won't be doing life as we know it much of a favor by trapping Venusian levels of heat in. |
OK, so I let my language get a little emotional, but comparing the CO2 levels on Venus to Earth, who's being ridiculous.
http://brneurosci.org/co2.html
"The arithmetic of absorption of infrared radiation also works to decrease the linearity. Absorption of light follows a logarithmic curve (Fig. 2) as the amount of absorbing substance increases. It is generally accepted that the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is already high enough to absorb almost all the infrared radiation in the main carbon dioxide absorption bands over a distance of only a few km. Thus, even if the atmosphere were heavily laden with carbon dioxide, it would still only cause an incremental increase in the amount of infrared absorption over current levels. This means that a situation like Venus could not happen here. The atmosphere of Venus is 90 times thicker than Earth's and is 96% carbon dioxide, making the atmospheric carbon dioxide concentration on Venus 300,000 times higher than on Earth. Even so, the high temperatures on Venus are only partially caused by carbon dioxide; a major contributor is the thick bank of clouds containing sulfuric acid [7]. Although these clouds give Venus a high reflectivity in the visible region, the Galileo probe showed that the clouds appear black at infrared wavelengths of 2.3 microns due to strong infrared absorption [8]. Thus, Venus's high temperature might be entirely explainable by direct absorption of incident light, rather than by any greenhouse effect. The infrared absorption lines by carbon dioxide are also broadened by the high pressure on Venus [9], making any comparison with Earth invalid."
Not even if we lit up all of the coal on Earth all at one time.
What annoys me is the indoctrination of young Australians (and probably other countries) that CO2 is this deadly gas that needs to be eradicated from the planet.
If you tell anyone under the age of 22 in Australia that actually carbon dioxide is a crucial for plant life for photosynthesis, they look at you like you are a raving lunatic. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Pollution in China |
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| Axiom wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
I totally agree cleaning up cancer villages and keeping Chinese skies and waters from looking like a post-apocalyptic Hell on Earth should take precedence over limiting Western CO2 emissions.
That said, the Michele Bachmann "CO2 is natural and nonpoisonous" bit is pretty ridiculous. Everything is poisonous at some dose. Everything is harmful either in excess or under the right circumstances. CO2 won't be doing life as we know it much of a favor by trapping Venusian levels of heat in. |
OK, so I let my language get a little emotional, but comparing the CO2 levels on Venus to Earth, who's being ridiculous. |
I don't know who, seeing as how I never compared CO2 levels on Venus to Earth's levels. I gave an example of a situation in which CO2 wouldn't be a great thing for life as we know it. Your response is akin to if I mentioned hypervitaminosis as a way vitamin D could be harmful and you replied that it's ridiculous to compare those levels of vitamin D with your usual intake. |
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Axiom
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Pollution in China |
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| Street Magic wrote: |
| Axiom wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
I totally agree cleaning up cancer villages and keeping Chinese skies and waters from looking like a post-apocalyptic Hell on Earth should take precedence over limiting Western CO2 emissions.
That said, the Michele Bachmann "CO2 is natural and nonpoisonous" bit is pretty ridiculous. Everything is poisonous at some dose. Everything is harmful either in excess or under the right circumstances. CO2 won't be doing life as we know it much of a favor by trapping Venusian levels of heat in. |
OK, so I let my language get a little emotional, but comparing the CO2 levels on Venus to Earth, who's being ridiculous. |
I don't know who, seeing as how I never compared CO2 levels on Venus to Earth's levels. I gave an example of a situation in which CO2 wouldn't be a great thing for life as we know it. Your response is akin to if I mentioned hypervitaminosis as a way vitamin D could be harmful and you replied that it's ridiculous to compare those levels of vitamin D with your usual intake. |
Well my apologies, but when you put the words "CO2", "trapping", "Venusian" and "heat" all in the one sentence in a discussion about pollution and CO2 levels on Earth you must be able to see were it was pretty easy to make the assumption. But I withdraw my "ridiculous" accusation. |
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Street Magic
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Pollution in China |
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| Axiom wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
| Axiom wrote: |
| Street Magic wrote: |
I totally agree cleaning up cancer villages and keeping Chinese skies and waters from looking like a post-apocalyptic Hell on Earth should take precedence over limiting Western CO2 emissions.
That said, the Michele Bachmann "CO2 is natural and nonpoisonous" bit is pretty ridiculous. Everything is poisonous at some dose. Everything is harmful either in excess or under the right circumstances. CO2 won't be doing life as we know it much of a favor by trapping Venusian levels of heat in. |
OK, so I let my language get a little emotional, but comparing the CO2 levels on Venus to Earth, who's being ridiculous. |
I don't know who, seeing as how I never compared CO2 levels on Venus to Earth's levels. I gave an example of a situation in which CO2 wouldn't be a great thing for life as we know it. Your response is akin to if I mentioned hypervitaminosis as a way vitamin D could be harmful and you replied that it's ridiculous to compare those levels of vitamin D with your usual intake. |
Well my apologies, but when you put the words "CO2", "trapping", "Venusian" and "heat" all in the one sentence in a discussion about pollution and CO2 levels on Earth you must be able to see were it was pretty easy to make the assumption. But I withdraw my "ridiculous" accusation. |
No need to apologize, although I'll also point out I didn't call your more recent accusation "ridiculous," just your initial claim about CO2 being a non-issue for the reason of its necessity to life in certain quantities and a "non-poisonous" status. Like I said in my first post in this thread, I still agree with the priority China's problems ought to take. |
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