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| How should we do it? |
| First Mars, then Moon, then Venus |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
| First Moon, then Venus, then Mars |
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19% |
[ 5 ] |
| First Venus, then Moon, then Mars |
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7% |
[ 2 ] |
| First Mars, then Venus, then Moon |
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| First Venus, then Mars, then Moon |
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| First Moon, then Mars, then Venus |
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69% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 26 |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:32 am Post subject: Which place should we colonize first? And 2nd, 3rd? |
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Note: Venus does not mean the surface of the planet, but rather the cloudtops. The surface is deadly.
Pictures:
(ignore Mercury there on the left)
Here are the good and bad points of each, courtesy of Wikipedia:
Moon
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Advantages
Placing a colony on a natural body would provide an ample source of material for construction and other uses, including shielding from radiation. The energy required to send objects from the Moon to space is much less than from Earth to space. This could allow the Moon to serve as a construction site or fueling station for spacecraft. Some proposals include using electric acceleration devices to propel objects off the Moon without building rockets. Furthermore, the Moon does have some gravity, which, experience to date indicates, may be vital for longterm human health. Whether the Moon's gravity (roughly one sixth of Earth's) is adequate for this purpose remains to be seen.
In addition, the Moon is the closest large body in the solar system to Earth. While some Earth-crosser asteroids occasionally pass closer, the Moon's distance is consistently within a small range of 384,400 km. This proximity has several benefits:
The energy required to send objects from Earth to the Moon is lower than for most other bodies. Earth-crossing asteroids require somewhat less delta V, but the months of travel required would necessitate a safe habitat for humans. The extra weight would likely more than offset any delta-V savings.
Transit time is short. The Apollo astronauts made the trip in three days. Other chemical rockets such as would be used for any Moon missions in the next one to two decades at least, would take a similar length of time to make the trip.
The short transit time would also allow emergency supplies to quickly reach a Moon colony from Earth, or allow a human crew to evacuate relatively quickly from the Moon to Earth in case of emergency. This could be an important consideration when establishing the first human colony.
The round trip communication delay to Earth is only a few seconds, allowing normal voice and video conversation. The delay for other solar system bodies is minutes or hours; for example, round trip communication time between Earth and Mars ranges from about eight minutes to about forty minutes. This again would be of particular value in an early colony, where life-threatening problems requiring Earth's assistance would be expected to occur. (See, for example: Apollo 13)
On the lunar near side, the Earth appears large and is always visible, unlike more distant locations where the earth would be seen merely as a star-like object, much as the planets appear from Earth. As a result, a Lunar colony might feel less remote to humans living there. No astronauts have ever traveled so far as to be too far away to clearly see the Earth.
A lunar base would provide an excellent site for any kind of observatory. As the Moon's rotation is so slow, visible light observatories could perform observations for days at a time. It is possible to maintain near-constant observations on a specific target with a string of such observatories spanning the circumference of the Moon. Radio observatories could be considerably larger than the Arecibo radio observatory, due to the Moon's low gravity. The Moon is also geologically dead; that fact, and the lack of widespread human activity, result in a remarkable lack of mechanical disturbance, making it far easier to set up interferometric telescopes on the lunar surface, even at relatively higher frequencies such as visible light.
Perhaps most importantly from a psychological point of view, the Moon is the only body in the Solar System that is visible as a disk with the naked eye from Earth. The ability to look up at the moon and contemplate on the other humans living their life somewhere other than Earth would be a consistent reminder that Earth need not be the only location for humans to live on. Such an change in thinking might be as significant as the change which occured when it was realized that the Earth revolved around the Sun, instead of vice versa.
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Disadvantages
There are several disadvantages to the Moon as a colony site:
The long lunar night would impede reliance on solar power and require a colony to be designed that could withstand large temperature extremes. An exception to this restriction are the so-called "peaks of eternal light" located at the lunar north pole that are constantly bathed in sunlight. Other areas near the poles that get light most of the time could be linked in a power grid.
The Moon lacks light elements (volatiles), including hydrogen, carbon, and nitrogen, although there is some evidence of hydrogen near the north and south poles. Additionally, oxygen though one of the most common elements in the regolith constituting the Moon's surface, is only found bound up in minerals that would require complex industrial infrastructure using very high energy to isolate. Some or all of these volatiles are needed to generate breathable air, water, food, and rocket fuel, all of which would need to be imported from Earth until other, cheaper sources are developed. This would limit the colony's rate of growth and keep it dependent on Earth. The cost of volatiles could be reduced by constructing the upper stage of supply ships using materials high in volatiles, such as carbon fiber and other plastics, although converting these into forms useful for life would involve substantial difficulty. The 2006 announcement by the Keck Observatory that the binary Trojan asteroid 617 Patroclus, and possibly large numbers of other Trojan objects in Jupiter's orbit, are likely composed of water ice, with a layer of dust, and the hypothesized large amounts of water ice on the closer, main-belt asteroid 1 Ceres, suggest that importing volatiles from this region via the Interplanetary Transport Network may be practical in the not-so-distant future. However, these possibilities are dependent on complicated and expensive resource utilization from the mid to outer solar system, which are not likely to become available to a Moon colony for a significant period of time. One of the lowest delta-V sources for volatiles for the Moon is Mars, suggesting that developing colonies on Mars first may in the long run be the easiest and least expensive way to establish a colony on the Moon.
There is continuing uncertainty over whether the low one sixth g gravity on the Moon is strong enough to prevent detrimental effects to human health in the long term. Exposure to weightlessness over month-long periods has been demonstrated to cause deterioration of physiological systems, such as loss of bone and muscle mass and a depressed immune system. Similar effects could occur in a low-gravity environment, although virtually all research into the health effects of low gravity has been limited to zero gravity. Countermeasures such as an aggressive routine of daily exercise have proven at least partially effective in preventing the deleterious effects of low gravity.
The lack of a substantial atmosphere for insulation results in temperature extremes and makes the Moon's surface conditions somewhat like a deep space vacuum. It also leaves the lunar surface exposed to just as much radiation as in interplanetary space.
Also, the lack of an atmosphere increases the chances of a colonial site being hit by meteors, which would impact upon the surface directly, as they have done throughout the moon's history, thus its countless craters. Even small pebbles and dust have the potential to damage or destroy insufficiently protected structures.
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Venus
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Venus has certain similarities to Earth which might make colonization easier in many respects in comparison with other possible destinations. These similarities, and its proximity, have led Venus to be called Earth's "sister planet".
At present it has not been established whether the gravity of Mars, at about one-third that of the Earth, would be sufficient to avoid bone decalcification and muscle tone loss experienced by astronauts over the long term through microgravity (the probe Mars Gravity Biosatellite will be the first probe to investigate this). In comparison, Venus is close in size and mass to the Earth, resulting in almost the same gravity (0.904 g). Most other space exploration and colonization plans face concerns about the damaging effect of long-term exposure to fractional g or zero gravity on the human musculoskeletal system. Furthermore, humans born on Venus would have almost no difficulty adapting to Earth gravity should there be a reason to visit or return.
In Venus' upper atmosphere, at an altitude of approximately 50 kilometers, the pressure and temperature is Earthlike (1 bar and 0-50 degrees Celsius). In addition, in this region, solar energy is abundant. The solar constant at the top of Venus's atmosphere is 2610 watts per square metre, 1.9 times that of Earth, and the clouds are reflective enough that solar panels pointing downward towards them would be nearly as effective as those pointing upwards towards the sun. The atmospheric winds at this altitude would drive a floating station around the planet once every 100 hours or so. At higher latitudes this would take even less time, resulting in a 'day' much closer to the 24-hour day experienced on Earth than on the surface of Venus with the 243 days it takes to make a single rotation.
Venus is also the closest major body to the Earth other than the Moon, making transportation and communications easier than for most other locations in the solar system. At present technology launch windows to Venus occur every 584 days, compared to the 780 days for Mars. Flight time is also somewhat shorter; the probe Venus Express which recently arrived at Venus took slightly over five months, compared to nearly six months for Mars Express. At closest approach, Venus is 45 million km from Earth compared to 56 million km for Mars.
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Obstacles
Venus also presents several significant challenges to human colonization:
Hostile surface conditions: the surface of the planet is extremely hot, with temperatures at the equator of around 500 �C (932 �F), higher than the melting point of lead. The atmospheric pressure on the surface is also at least ninety times greater than on Earth, which is equivalent to the pressure experienced under a kilometer of water. These conditions have caused other missions to the surface of the planet to be extremely brief: the probes Venera 5 and Venera 6 for example were crushed by high pressure 18 km above the surface. Following missions such as Venera 7 and Venera 8 succeeded in transmitting data after reaching the surface, but these missions were brief as well, lasting no more than a single hour on the surface.
Water, in any form, is almost entirely absent. The atmosphere is devoid of oxygen and is primarily carbon dioxide in poisonously high concentrations. In addition, the visible clouds are comprised in part of sulfuric acid and sulfur dioxide vapor.
Other smaller obstacles include:
Though Venus is still quite close to Earth relative to other bodies in the Solar System, having to wait for a launch window every 500+ days at present technology would leave missions isolated from possible aid from Earth should problems occur. Having Earth appear as a small blue dot in the sky would not be as comforting to early explorers as the view from the moon, where Earth is always visible on one side. |
Mars
(this page doesn't have the advantages and disadvantages all spelled out, but here's some info)
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the Martian day (or sol) is very close to Earth's. A Mars solar day is 24 hours 39 minutes 35.244 seconds. [1] See timekeeping on Mars.
Mars has a surface area that is 28.4% of Earth's, only slightly less than the amount of dry land on Earth (which is 29.2% of Earth's surface).
Mars has an axial tilt of 25.19�, compared with Earth's 23.44�. As a result, Mars has seasons much like Earth, though they last nearly twice as long because the Martian year is about 1.88 Earth years. The Martian north pole points at Cygnus, not Ursa Minor.
Mars has an atmosphere. While very thin (about 0.7% of Earth's atmosphere), it provides some protection from solar and cosmic radiation and has been used successfully for aerobraking of spacecraft.
Recent observations by NASA's Mars Exploration Rovers and ESA's Mars Express confirm the presence of water on Mars. Mars appears to have significant quantities of all the elements necessary to support life.
[edit]
Differences
There are differences, of course, between Earth and Mars:
The surface gravity on Mars is only one third that of Earth. It is not known if this level is high enough to prevent the health problems associated with weightlessness.
Mars is much colder than Earth, with a mean surface temperature of -63�C and a low of -140�C.
There are no standing bodies of liquid water on the surface of Mars.
Because Mars is further from the Sun, the level of solar energy reaching the surface (the solar constant) is only about half of what reaches the Earth or the Moon.
Mars' orbit is more eccentric than Earth's, exacerbating temperature and solar constant variations.
The atmospheric pressure on Mars is much too low for humans to survive without pressure suits; habitable structures on Mars will need to be constructed with pressure vessels similar to space craft, capable of supporting 1 bar pressure.
The Martian atmosphere consists mainly of carbon dioxide. However the partial pressure of CO2 at the surface of Mars is some 52 times higher than on Earth, possibly allowing Mars to support plant life.
Mars has two moons and they are much smaller and closer to the planet than Earth's Moon. Phobos and Deimos might prove useful as places to test concepts for colonizing the asteroids.
Mars has no Magnetosphere to deflect Solar Winds. |
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Snowmeow
Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Location: pc room
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: |
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I voted for the last option, but I'd say none of the above. Stick to Earth, and find ways to allow more people to live comfortably in the same space. I see the future of Earth eventually approaching something like the planet Coruscant in Star Wars, with a population that soars into the hundred billions. Somehow it is is able to sustain itself with technology and man made ecosystems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coruscant
If humankind is to truly colonize another planet I think it will have to be outside our solar system. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Snowmeow wrote: |
I voted for the last option, but I'd say none of the above. Stick to Earth, and find ways to allow more people to live comfortably in the same space. I see the future of Earth eventually approaching something like the planet Coruscant in Star Wars, with a population that soars into the hundred billions. Somehow it is is able to sustain itself with technology and man made ecosystems. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coruscant
If humankind is to truly colonize another planet I think it will have to be outside our solar system. |
Yeah, Coruscant's dope! If we're using Star Wars analogies though, Cloud City could easily be created in the cloudtops of Venus.
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kato
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| yay for island cities |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| My view is that we'll never colonize another planet/satelite. The distances in space are just too big. I say we'll build huge space stations and live in space, since building stations is what we'll have to do on Mars or other bodies anyway, since natural conditions are obviously inappropriate. Nuclear fusion energy will have been invented by then and conditions on Earth will be hostile. |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| How about Corporal's choice of Uranus |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| My view is that we'll never colonize another planet/satelite. The distances in space are just too big. I say we'll build huge space stations and live in space, since building stations is what we'll have to do on Mars or other bodies anyway, since natural conditions are obviously inappropriate. Nuclear fusion energy will have been invented by then and conditions on Earth will be hostile. |
It's funny how humans will never learn. I am quite sure people used to say this about other places on the earth before real sailing and cartography technology was invented.
Not that we won't build huge space stations, it's just I disagree with your first 2 sentences. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| SPINOZA wrote: |
| My view is that we'll never colonize another planet/satelite. The distances in space are just too big. I say we'll build huge space stations and live in space, since building stations is what we'll have to do on Mars or other bodies anyway, since natural conditions are obviously inappropriate. Nuclear fusion energy will have been invented by then and conditions on Earth will be hostile. |
It's funny how humans will never learn. I am quite sure people used to say this about other places on the earth before real sailing and cartography technology was invented.
Not that we won't build huge space stations, it's just I disagree with your first 2 sentences. |
I didn't necessarily mean we won't colonize other planets because we can't get there quickly enough. No doubt we will invent that technology - I certainly hope so. Actually, more importantly, we need Earth air travel to become much quicker.
My point is....what's the point building a huge colony on Mars (necessary given surface conditions are totally inhospitable) when we can just build ones to float around in space? I envisage huge space cities, which is hardly an expression of pessimism about human capability, is it? |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| SPINOZA wrote: |
| My view is that we'll never colonize another planet/satelite. The distances in space are just too big. I say we'll build huge space stations and live in space, since building stations is what we'll have to do on Mars or other bodies anyway, since natural conditions are obviously inappropriate. Nuclear fusion energy will have been invented by then and conditions on Earth will be hostile. |
Most of a rocket's energy is used to escape Earth's gravity well. Once you're clear of that, it's smooth sailing (almost literally) to Mars, Venus, or wherever.
I wasn't sure how to answer the poll. I think that it will be necessary to build bases on the moon first (as a kind of "jumping-off" point), but that Mars is our best bet for human colonies, especially if we terraform it. |
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Troll_Bait
Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Location: [T]eaching experience doesn't matter much. -Lee Young-chan (pictured)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: Which place should we colonize first? And 2nd, 3rd? |
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| mithridates wrote: |
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Mercury looks only a little bit bigger than the moon. Maybe it should join Pluto in the "I-got-kicked-out-of-the-Planets'-Club." |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Greenland! Screw the Danish!
*_* |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: Which place should we colonize first? And 2nd, 3rd? |
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| Troll_Bait wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
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Mercury looks only a little bit bigger than the moon. Maybe it should join Pluto in the "I-got-kicked-out-of-the-Planets'-Club." |
It might have were it not for the fact that it's super dense and has a strong magnetic field as a result of that. Ganymede for example is bigger than Mercury, but Mercury's still twice its mass and thus has the same gravity as Mars. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| We've given up on the center of our hollow Earth? |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Mercury has a clearly-defined orbit, so I'd argue it should remain in the 8-개뿐 family.
I'm still not convinced colonization of anything is necessary. Putting men on Mars of course should occur because it's necessary to study Mars, but as for building stuff on it.....hmm. |
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Delirium's Brother
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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I voted for six, because it seems to be the most realistic technological progression. On the other hand I think that it might be nice if we actually tried to solve some problems here on Earth before we tried to escape them by traveling to and colonizing other worlds. It's my opinion that technology rarely plays an important part in solving the bigger social problems of a society; it only allows one to postpone solving them. I heard a very interesting Massey lecture on this very topic. I wish that I could remember the title. Oh wait, I found a link. There you go.
Last edited by Delirium's Brother on Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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