Korean Job Discussion Forums

[poet13]

Ok.
So during a first year boys middle school class, one boy gets up and announces that another boy across the room threw an eraser at him and hit him in the head. No injury and I don't like kids ratting each other out.
So I said, "How awful for you. Sit down please."
So a few minutes later I'm on the other side of the room and a pice of chalk come whizzing by, maybe 3 feet in front of me. I stopped and asked who threw it. No one answers. I asked again. No one answers. We were a little more than five minutes before the end of class. So I said, "Ok, we can wait. I'm here until five." So we wait....and wait....and wait. The bell goes....and we wait. The five minute bell for the next class goes....and we wait. periodically I ask, "Who threw the chalk?" No yelling, just loud enough to be heard over the chattering. The bell for the start of the next class goes.....and we wait. The next teacher sticks her head in, apologizes, and closes the door.
Finally, I said, "I'm very dissapointed that one boy punished the whole class. I think that's very selfish. I will talk to your home room teacher."

I did not yell, shout, or scream. I did not lose my temper. I think I know which boy threw the chalk, but I didn't see it. I think it was the boy who complained that someone threw chalk at him. I think his silence stemmed from the unfairness that the other boy wasn't punished first. But as I said, I never saw that, and I don't reward rats.
Had the boy admitted to throwing the chalk, I would likely have only said, "Don't do that again."

But now I'm in a bad situation, unfortunately of my own creation.

By not punishing the original offender, I gave the impression to the subesequent offender that that behaviour was acceptable.

By singling out the second instance of throwing, I have given the very strong impression that justice in my class is not equal.

Finally, I allowed the situation to degenerate into a deadlock.
(The bad part of that is that I think it's wrong to carry an issue from one day <two weeks with these guys> to the next. But if I let it go, I will be perceived as innefective. If I carry it over, I won't feel right about that either.

Currently, as I am about 97% convinced which boy threw the chalk, I am thinking to take him aside after class and sit down with Korean English teacher to talk to him. The most important thing I want him to understand is that when you do something, you own up to it.

What would you do?

[Yu_Bum_suk]

I think you handled it fairly well. I don't know if trying to nab him amidst the chaos of afternoon dismissal will work that well, but you could give it a go. I hope you stressed 'NO throwing things in class, especially at other people'. If they didn't get the message then you'll have an opportunity single out a trouble-maker in the future and make your point known, I'm sure. All in all it sounds like you handled it fine.

[riley]

I'm missing something here. I always thought a rat was someone who tries to get someone in trouble when they (the teller) had nothing to do with the problem. The boy was telling you that someone had hit him. If I was him, or the other boy, I would have understood what you said to mean that either the teller should handle it himself (throw chalk) or that the thrower won't get in trouble and can throw more things. So yeah, I would say you created the problem.

[ChuckECheese]

I would have told the entire class to get down and give me 50 push-ups. But you're in charge so what ever you did for the situation as you fit is always correct. Never second guess your decision. You did well.

[poet13]

"I'm missing something here. I always thought a rat was someone who tries to get someone in trouble when they (the teller) had nothing to do with the problem. The boy was telling you that someone had hit him. If I was him, or the other boy, I would have understood what you said to mean that either the teller should handle it himself (throw chalk) or that the thrower won't get in trouble and can throw more things. So yeah, I would say you created the problem."

I know I created the problem. I'm asking advice on how to follow up on this.

To me a rat is someone who tells on someone else....for whatever reason.
However, I did not see the original item thrown, nor did I see it hit the boy. I have boys all the time who say he did this, or he did that, and most of the time, they're just clowning around.

[Yu_Bum_suk]

[riley]

Poet13, I posted because I was honestly surprised by your definition of rat. Sorry that I didn't offer any advice. I honestly do think that by not busting that one boy first, you sent the wrong message, but I'm not there and don't know the boys or your situation with them.

Now for some advice (to actually answer your post), when I've had a situation go awry, the best thing for me to do, is to look over the situation and see what went wrong and then to remember for next time. I wouldn't reccomend talking to that boy about it because he may not understand, nor do I believe it will help. I'd just try to remember not to let it happen again.

My problem in the classroom is not that kids always tell me about the problem, it's that they tend to take the law into their own hands. (He took my pen, so I'll hit him) I have to remind them that it's my job to sort it out.

[schwa]

[The_Conservative]

I'm with Mr Cheese on this one.

[Ya-ta Boy]

I agree with you that you ended up inadvertantly sending the wrong message.

How about calling in the boy you suspect (I'm 95% sure you are right he is the one who threw the chalk, too.) and with the help (if needed) of your co-teacher, ask him if he did it? Then tell him you handled the situation poorly and tell him you will try to do better next time.

Like you, I don't like tattle tales, but on the other hand, victims are left to suffer if the teacher won't stand up for them. Bullies rely on victims not to tell.

[poet13]

I agree, ya-ta, but the problem now is, I won't see them again until next week. Tomorrow I'm at my alternate school, and then the boys are off on a three day school trip.
I did hang around as long as I could after their class to see if I could pull him aside for a word with another teacher, but I had to go off to another class.
I feel badly that I damaged my image with that class. Not because I am particularily concerned with my image, but it's important for kids to see consistency in rule and punishment. I failed in that.
Had i seen the first boy throw whatever, it would have been him on the carpet.
I also worry though that the student, by refusing to identify himself, gained a small victory of defiance in his and his classmates eyes. I worry that through that, they may be tempted to further push the bounds of discipline, and yes, honesty. Unfortunately, it means that I will have to tighten my grip on the class for a while. I do like the boys to have fun during their classes, but not out of control, and throwing stuff is absolutely not acceptable. This is a good class. Well, all of my classes are good.
Well, we'll see what happens.

[oneofthesarahs]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. I generally have an unless you are permanently injured, don't tattle to me policy. It's really not fair to try to police things that I didn't actually witness, especially when it's things like "He poked me in the side," "He took my eraser and then gave it back to me," "She talked for five seconds to her friend."

These kids love to rat each other out, and I don't have much tolerance for it.

[Fresh Prince]

I understand exactly how the OP feels. I guarantee the student would not have thrown chalk at a Korean teacher though, lest he face corporal punishment in front of his classmates.

I would just let it pass and forget about it. The kid that threw the chalk saved face when nobody told on him so he's happy. They also know that that they pushed the line about as far as it will go.

If you don't know who did it then everyone can move on and start fresh, if you find out who did it then you will have to punish the kid and then the issue of the other kid not getting punished will come up.

I don't know what kind of situation you have there but it might be a good thing to tell the students that even though you are a foreigner you are highly qualified and expect the same amount of respect that the Korean teachers receive and that from now on the class will follow the same rules that they do with their Korean teachers.

[merkurix]

Hmm . . . seems to me that if this particular group of boys is an unmotivated bunch of goofballs, they have just discovered the secret to preventing or putting off the day's lesson. I respect your intentions, but byhaving a silent standoff, you might also be risking the respect of those few students who esteem you highly (however few they might be). What has worked in the past for me is I give them a 5 minute time limit to confess. If the guy comes forward, only one guy has to write me an apology. But if that fails I have each and everyone write me a one page apology. It's in the better interest of the perp to fess up his crime; the rest will apologize for being complicit by not outing the perp when I asked the first time, "who did it". I have only had to use this twice and both times not only did the perp fess up, but there was no shortage of students who reported him in writing (had there been no confession, but multiple students pointing out the guilty suspect in writing, my punishment on him would have been severe). Anyways, this worked for me; maybe it might work for you too.

[thegadfly]

Well, Poet, as you said, you created this mess. I think your definition of "rat" runs counter to your role as teacher -- discipline is part of the job, and if you only enforce discipline for what you witness, you are opening yourself up for all kinds of things you do not witness -- like chalk being chucked at you. You screwed up, you are a role model and you sent the wrong message -- so what do you do? You fix it. You fess up.

If I had this problem, I would start by apologizing, in front of the class, to the boy that I did not take seriously. I would explain how not doing anything to check out his complaint was wrong on my part. I would apologize for my mistake, then I would explain that EVERYONE makes mistakes. The important thing is to try to own up to the mistake first, then try to rectify the error.

THEN, I would ask the boy that had the complaint the previous day who he thought threw it, and would go through the steps of chasing the complaint down -- most likely having one kid sheepishly say, "I threw it, I'm sorry." I'd make them do the "shake hands" thing, then sit them down.

THEN I would explain to the class that this is what I SHOULD have done the previous day, but I had made a mistake. I would repeat that we all make mistakes, and since we do all make mistakes, learning how to fix them is an important skill.

THEN I would ask who threw the chalk at me. Most likely, the kid that did it (the one you snubbed originally, I think you said) would own up to it. I would make a big show of how it took guts to stand up and admit to his mistake. I would then let him decide upon his own punishment for the behavior. Most likely it will be something more severe than I would assign. Depending on how well or poorly this whole lesson went (and make no mistake, this IS a lesson -- not just in language, but in life!), I might teach the idiom, "it's a wash," and say my mistake makes punishing him for his mistake unnecessary, or perhaps I would let him serve his self-chosen punishment.

THEN I would remind myself that fairness and consistency in discipline should be my goal, and that if it means listening to a "rat" to protect a kid from being harassed, then I should get over my disdain and deal with it.

I took your request for advice seriously. I hope this helps.