Korean Job Discussion Forums

[EFLtrainer]

Go ahead: watch this then tell me lies weren't told.

[igotthisguitar]

CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY.

[Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee]

Zundel - Prisoner
Of Zionism

[EFLtrainer]

Bump.

C'mon, people. You comment on Gere's kisses and ignore what may be the most important stories around... We've seen what happens when the press stops being the Fourth Estate.

[stevemcgarrett]

Moyers was for a time very deliberative on PBS, especially in terms of socio-political analysis.

But as of late he's become a political hack. He's funded by Soros, he's deliberately distorted things said by people on the right (O'Reilly ran two segments showing exactly how his words were deliberately taken out of context by Moyers, who was sensationalizing).

He hangs out with his old, disgruntled, anti-right buddy Dan Rather and then interviews him as if the latter strives to be objective in his political analysis. Even Cronkite thought Rather was over the top--as did Brinkley.

Moyers is like Moore, only with more intelligence.

[igotthisguitar]

I basically like Moyers.

The PBS series he did with JOSEPH CAMPBELL is a modern classic.

He was a member of the LBJ cabinet was he not?

Presidential "wise man" advisor.

As far as the insiders go, he's likely as good as they get

[Octavius Hite]

OK, so its Saturday night at 1:18 am and I just finished watching the doc. If you haven't seen it watch it now.

On to the discussion:

WMD- Saddam did not have WMD. The White House had no proof that they did. When UN Weapons Inspectors were sent back into Iraq in late 2002 they verified that he most likely did not have weapons.

But other intel agencies, in other countries, thought he did. NO they didn't. The MI6 report was immediatly debunked by the British press as being nothing more than a plagerized grad student thesis.

Al-Qaida and Saddam were working together- Despite the obvious FACT that AQ's stated goal is create a new Islamic empire from India (or Indonesia depending on what Muslim nut you listen to) to Spain and this goal meant it was at war with Saddam. The CIA sent Bob Baer to Prague to investigate the aleged link between Mohammed Atta and "Iraqi Government/Military contacts" and what did this veteran undercover CIA operative find???? NOTHING. There was no such meeting and no such link.


So those were the two justifications for going to war and both were debunked well before the spring of 2002.

History will (and is already in many cases) recording this war as a lie and a tragic one that will cost hundreds of thousands of lives. For this reason alone the sacrifice made by soldiers will never be an honourable one. There is no honour in this war or in this government.


Where does the US go from here?

They leave.

Now the knee jerk response from many on this board and many people that I have spoken to is: "but that will embolden the terrorists and kill thousands of Iraqi's in a bloodbath and the failed state of Iraq will become a training ground for terrorists".

1. The US cannot win. As we saw in Vietnam and Afghanistan even the most powerful armies cannot defeat a popular insurgancy without laying waste to the entire country. So whether the US leaves in 6 months or 6 years the terrorists will wait and they are patient. Leaving now means the US can regroup and rethink their strategy against AQ and the Muslim world as a whole. Staying on indefinitly means grinding away, destroying the armed forces, destroying domestic political will and feeding the recruitment drive of AQ. If you have a grease fire you cover it choking off the air supply, you don't pour water on it.

2. Without US troops The Shiite militias will take over the south and Baghdad. Sunni Muslims will retreat to the west. The US will move to the north and garuntee Kurdistan. Will the violence continue, yes, it may even spike up, but the groups will quickly learn that they have to segregate to survive making violence less likely. Having the Shiite's make up the government will destroy Bush's daydream of a multi-faith, multi-ethnic liberal democracy, but that dream is over anyway. Splitting up the country (even just unofficially) undoes the foolish work of the colonialists in 1919 where they carved up the Ottoman Empire (using the mask of Wilsonian liberalism and self determination) in order to gain something after the carnage of WWI.

3. Iraq is now a training ground for terrorists. As we sit here and talk out of our ass, thousands of young Muslim men are making their way to Iraq to murder Americans and Brits. Some are looking to remake the Muslim Caliphate of 750AD. Others are just looking for adventure like so many other men (of all religious faiths) have done since the beginning of armed conflict. But when this conflict comes to an end, and it will, these men (like the mujahadin of the Soviet-Afghan conflict i.e. Osama) will then have to figure out something to do with their lives. Holy War looks better and better to battle hardened fundamentalists with no employable skills.
The US says fighting them in Iraq prevents this but since we know that the US will never stay their forever the longer they stay the more mujahdin that will be created and trained. At least if the US left and the Shiite's took control the mere threat of another US invasion or bombing campaign would keep Al-sadr from allowing Afghani style training camps.


So that is my rant. If you feel like commenting or debating me sure I welcome it. If you are going to attack my being a gay Canadian (instead of dealing with the facts on the ground) then here's a preemptive SHUT UP.

[EFLtrainer]

[gang ah jee]

[Kuros]

[stevemcgarrett]

gang ah jee:

Yes, I viewed the clips. I don't post information I haven't previewed myself. And my reaction is that his words were taken out of context.

igotthisguitar:

Moyers' interviews with Joseph Campbell are indeed classic and he has a sharp mind. But he has clearly become politically partisan, something PBS made a concerted effort to avoid in the beginning.

EFLTrainer:

Is it possible for you to get through a post without resorting to reckless slurs? You sound like a teenager who's been drinking too much of the caffeine-loaded energy drinks. Get a grip.

Dr. Hite:

I'll address what you said point by point when I have a moment. I'm sure in the meantime you'll wait with bated breath. Don't worry, your sexual orientation won't influence my response. The fact that you're Canadian, however, is relevant and therefore fair game.

On second thought, I concur almost completely with kuros assessment and response. He's saved me the trouble. I would only add two points: if the U.S. withdraws, you can bet Syria and Iran will interfere in a big way but they're be no international outcry because they're Muslim nations. Why do you think al-Sadr is itching for us to pull out?

As for Vietnam, many factors impeded American victory, not the least of which was the corrosive effect of corruption on popular support for the Saigon regime, including its violation of Buddhist principles. For a definitive and fairly objective account of what really transpired in Vietnam, you should read Kaiser's American Tragedy, published by the Belknap Press at Harvard. No other book of the conflict is so meticulous in recounting the decisions reached and the travails confronted.

And let me say here and now that while you certainly have the right to opine on American military policies, you do so as an outsider with no vested interest in the discussion other than your private concern. You might not think so, but many of your posts reveal a certain elitist contempt for the American military. That is offensive to me at least as much because it is so wilfully ignorant. For half a century--regardless of the Iraqi War--Canada has benefited from having a powerful neighbor willing to absorb the sacrifice, both human and financial, for protecting the North American continent. Many CDF staff I've met know this implicitly but not evidently Canadians like you who've never worn the uniform.

[gang ah jee]

[Octavius Hite]

Steve wrote:

[EFLtrainer]

[EFLtrainer]