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n3ptne
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Location: Poh*A*ng City
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 Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: No more Limbo |
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The Vatican has determined that limbo does not exist, opening the gates of heaven to babies who die unbaptised, a member of a high-level theological commission told AFP on Friday.
"The many factors that we have considered ... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptised infants who die will be saved," says a document published by the US magazine Origins with the approval of Pope Benedict XVI.
The medieval concept of limbo as a place where unbaptised infants spend eternity but without communion with God seems to reflect an "unduly restrictive view of salvation," the document says.
The thought that stillborn babies, for example, would be relegated to a kind of no-man's-land in the afterlife tormented generations of Catholic families.
The idea of limbo - from the Latin for "edge" - was meant to address the paradox that unbaptised babies could not go to heaven because their original sin had not been expunged, but nor should they go to purgatory or hell.
In 1984, when Benedict headed the Vatican's doctrinal enforcement body as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he said he was "personally" in favour of scrapping the 13th-century notion, which he termed a mere "hypothesis".
He has approved the document drafted by the International Theological Commission, the panel's secretary told reporters, adding however that its conclusions were not to be considered Roman Catholic Church dogma.
A member of the panel, Dijon (France) Archbishop Roland Minnerath, said the 41-page document was completed several weeks ago after deliberations that began in November 2005.
"We cannot know with certainty what will happen" when an unbaptised baby dies, said panel member Paul McPartlan. "But we have good grounds to hope that God in his mercy and love looks after these children and brings them to salvation," he said, quoted by the Catholic News Service.
AFP
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I wonder if their results will be published in any peer reviewed publications...
But, good to know you now have a better chance of convincing Christian women to have an abortion  |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| I've often been frustrated by Catholic dogma that has no basis in the Bible, and am more than impressed that the Vatican would have the guts to cross out this bit of wishful thinking. The Bible has a lot of blanks, a lot of lines to read between, but when it comes down to it, my guess is as good as the Cardinal's. |
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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Just goes to show you how ridiculous religion is, not just the Catholic religion. Don't say " but my religion is different" because it's not. Hopefully it will wake people of all religions to hang their heads in shame and start thinking for themselves. But it won't, bring on the Jesus/Allah/Buddah/Jewish guy comments. Just pathetic. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| 4 months left wrote: |
| Just goes to show you how ridiculous religion is, not just the Catholic religion. Don't say " but my religion is different" because it's not. Hopefully it will wake people of all religions to hang their heads in shame and start thinking for themselves. But it won't, bring on the Jesus/Allah/Buddah/Jewish guy comments. Just pathetic. |
Sigh.
Who are you to say I haven't thought for myself? Neither your mashed up metaphors nor your superior attitude convinces me that *you* have the answers we all need. |
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4 months left
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| 4 months left wrote: |
| Just goes to show you how ridiculous religion is, not just the Catholic religion. Don't say " but my religion is different" because it's not. Hopefully it will wake people of all religions to hang their heads in shame and start thinking for themselves. But it won't, bring on the Jesus/Allah/Buddah/Jewish guy comments. Just pathetic. |
Sigh.
Who are you to say I haven't thought for myself? Neither your mashed up metaphors nor your superior attitude convinces me that *you* have the answers we all need. |
Religious people have a superior attitude, I just have common sense. I think if you thought for yourself you would realize how crazy religion is and not be a follower. Mabye there is a god, maybe there isn't a god. Nobody knows but religion surely is not going to give you the answer. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| I've often been frustrated by Catholic dogma that has no basis in the Bible, and am more than impressed that the Vatican would have the guts to cross out this bit of wishful thinking. The Bible has a lot of blanks, a lot of lines to read between, but when it comes down to it, my guess is as good as the Cardinal's. |
He is a Pope now, you do know that right? |
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Summer Wine
Joined: 20 Mar 2005
Location: Next to a River
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Religious people have a superior attitude, I just have common sense. I think if you thought for yourself you would realize how crazy religion is and not be a follower. Mabye there is a god, maybe there isn't a god. Nobody knows but religion surely is not going to give you the answer. |
Personally most people that I have met who have a superior attitude are liberal athiests, but thats just my experience. I would tend to trust a person who is religious and believes that certain morals apply over someone who feels they can and should make up the rules as they go along, but thats just my experience too.
Though women with no morals or very loose ones are a little difficult to find, they are fewer than you would think and harder to trust. Anyway, getting off track. Personally I am not sure why people who don't believe in God or religion feel they need to tell the world every two minutes or convert the rest of the world to thier belief.
Maybe someday they can explain it to me. |
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Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Personally most people that I have met who have a superior attitude are liberal athiests, but thats just my experience. I would tend to trust a person who is religious and believes that certain morals apply over someone who feels they can and should make up the rules as they go along, but thats just my experience too. |
You're right, that's just your experience. Rest assured, it works both ways. However, religious people are sure they're right (by definition, or else I would call them agnostic), whereas many people who don't believe in god tend just to think so and are open-minded (common sense vs faith).
Also, why do you think religious people don't make up the moral rules as they go along? Christians are hardly consistent in this regard, and a lot is open to interpretation. Finally, aetheists can live by staunch moral rules just as well as Christians. Morality does not equal religion.
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| Though women with no morals or very loose ones are a little difficult to find, they are fewer than you would think and harder to trust. Anyway, getting off track. Personally I am not sure why people who don't believe in God or religion feel they need to tell the world every two minutes or convert the rest of the world to thier belief. |
Again, it goes both ways. In terms of scale, religious people are worse though, if for no other reason than they are in the majority. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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| 4 months left wrote: |
| kermo wrote: |
| 4 months left wrote: |
| Just goes to show you how ridiculous religion is, not just the Catholic religion. Don't say " but my religion is different" because it's not. Hopefully it will wake people of all religions to hang their heads in shame and start thinking for themselves. But it won't, bring on the Jesus/Allah/Buddah/Jewish guy comments. Just pathetic. |
Sigh.
Who are you to say I haven't thought for myself? Neither your mashed up metaphors nor your superior attitude convinces me that *you* have the answers we all need. |
Religious people have a superior attitude, I just have common sense. I think if you thought for yourself you would realize how crazy religion is and not be a follower. Mabye there is a god, maybe there isn't a god. Nobody knows but religion surely is not going to give you the answer. |
Religion is not going to give me the answer, but some complete stranger on the internet is... and the answer is... "There is no answer." Ok, thanks. When does the "thinking for myself" start? |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:33 am Post subject: |
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| Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Personally most people that I have met who have a superior attitude are liberal athiests, but thats just my experience. I would tend to trust a person who is religious and believes that certain morals apply over someone who feels they can and should make up the rules as they go along, but thats just my experience too. |
You're right, that's just your experience. Rest assured, it works both ways. However, religious people are sure they're right (by definition, or else I would call them agnostic), whereas many people who don't believe in god tend just to think so and are open-minded (common sense vs faith). |
I know it seems arrogant to call yourself sure of anything. It's not currently in vogue to make broad judgements about what's right for everyone. In fact, it's commonly doubted that there is such a thing as "right." Fair enough.
I hope this doesn't make me a coward, but I'm enough of a believer to know that I'm not an atheist, but not convinced that I have every particle of truth. I try to be open-minded, and so I read Richard Dawkins as well as John Ortberg. I'm very interested in science, especially biology, and happily reconcile the notion of evolution with the idea of a Creative God.
A lot of people believe that in order to gain insight into the universe, one must start from scratch, and find the answers within oneself. Jajdude posted some very mystical stories last month about wise old men instructing their disciples not to pay any attention to the teachings of wise old men. It's all a bit circular and hypocritical.
My attitude is: "What do I know?" Really. Do I have the wisdom to construct a metaphysical outlook using only my own intuition, or what I determine to be "common sense"? That seems a bit arrogant, and needlessly reinventing the wheel.
I'm a Christian because I believe that love accomplishes everything worth doing, and I sense that this love has a source. I have considered the evidence for a historical Jesus, and found it sound enough. I've thought about Jesus' teachings and decided that the world would be a better place if they were practised. I've seen evidence of personal and miraculous changes brought about by prayer.
| Quote: |
Also, why do you think religious people don't make up the moral rules as they go along? Christians are hardly consistent in this regard, and a lot is open to interpretation. Finally, aetheists can live by staunch moral rules just as well as Christians. Morality does not equal religion. |
You're absolutely right here.
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| Though women with no morals or very loose ones are a little difficult to find, they are fewer than you would think and harder to trust. Anyway, getting off track. Personally I am not sure why people who don't believe in God or religion feel they need to tell the world every two minutes or convert the rest of the world to thier belief. |
Again, it goes both ways. In terms of scale, religious people are worse though, if for no other reason than they are in the majority. |
I'm not sure I can agree with you re: the majority. Scroll through a few threads here on Dave's and count how many times someone unequivocally insists "There is no God!" versus the ones shouting "Jesus/Allah/Krishna Saves!" The Christians on Dave's (with the exception of a few, like Blynch) are far more respectful and kind than the open-minded, common-sense-inspired irreligious lot who speak their minds. |
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swetepete
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Location: a limp little burg
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| Aw, I was hoping this thread was going to be about dancing...I always did suck at the limbo. |
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Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat
Joined: 01 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| I hope this doesn't make me a coward, but I'm enough of a believer to know that I'm not an atheist, but not convinced that I have every particle of truth. I try to be open-minded, and so I read Richard Dawkins as well as John Ortberg. I'm very interested in science, especially biology, and happily reconcile the notion of evolution with the idea of a Creative God. |
Sounds to me like you're an agnostic (albeit one leaning toward there being a god).
| Quote: |
| A lot of people believe that in order to gain insight into the universe, one must start from scratch, and find the answers within oneself. Jajdude posted some very mystical stories last month about wise old men instructing their disciples not to pay any attention to the teachings of wise old men. It's all a bit circular and hypocritical. |
Well, I don't think starting from scratch is the best way either. All I know is I'm just suspicious of anyone who claims to know the 'universal truth' (as I've mentioned in earlier posts). All my skepticism pretty well stems from that.
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| My attitude is: "What do I know?" Really. Do I have the wisdom to construct a metaphysical outlook using only my own intuition, or what I determine to be "common sense"? That seems a bit arrogant, and needlessly reinventing the wheel. |
I agree. However, I take it a step further because I don't think your figurative "wheel" has even been invented yet. That's why I've pretty much given up any practical hope of constructing a meaningful metaphysical outlook. I look around, don't see any universal truth, but it doesn't disturb me. It may seem odd to you, but I actually embrace the absurdity of existence. But absurdity is just the beginning, from there I try to look at what is real. Reality can be a slippery slope, but for me 'life' is real, and that's about it. Basically I think life can be defined by what we do on earth while we're alive. Above all, I feel that life should be practical, so in my opinion, dreaming of a metaphysical reality is just that, a dream (i.e. not real).
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| I'm a Christian because I believe that love accomplishes everything worth doing, and I sense that this love has a source. I have considered the evidence for a historical Jesus, and found it sound enough. I've thought about Jesus' teachings and decided that the world would be a better place if they were practised. I've seen evidence of personal and miraculous changes brought about by prayer. |
Well, love is one of those tricky terms. I think I get what you mean though. I still don't see how it follows from there that Jesus is the answer. You seem fairly bright (compared to say blynch), so let me ask you: just what is the evidence you mentioned above?
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| I'm not sure I can agree with you re: the majority. Scroll through a few threads here on Dave's and count how many times someone unequivocally insists "There is no God!" versus the ones shouting "Jesus/Allah/Krishna Saves!" The Christians on Dave's (with the exception of a few, like Blynch) are far more respectful and kind than the open-minded, common-sense-inspired irreligious lot who speak their minds. |
Perhaps, but (if I may be so bold) Daves is not typical. Most posters here are educated people, which puts them well in the minority. This also applies to the Christians here, who are smarter than average, and also more tolerant I think (except you know who).
In my everyday life back home, I never saw aetheists holding "repent sinners" signs on street corners. I think aetheists are in the minority overall. Anyway, sufficed to say both sides can be intolerant. |
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Grimalkin
Joined: 22 May 2005
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| Leopard-Skin Pill-Box Hat wrote: |
| Summer Wine wrote: |
| Personally most people that I have met who have a superior attitude are liberal athiests, but thats just my experience. I would tend to trust a person who is religious and believes that certain morals apply over someone who feels they can and should make up the rules as they go along, but thats just my experience too. |
You're right, that's just your experience. Rest assured, it works both ways. However, religious people are sure they're right (by definition, or else I would call them agnostic), whereas many people who don't believe in god tend just to think so and are open-minded (common sense vs faith). |
I know it seems arrogant to call yourself sure of anything. It's not currently in vogue to make broad judgements about what's right for everyone. In fact, it's commonly doubted that there is such a thing as "right." Fair enough.
I hope this doesn't make me a coward, but I'm enough of a believer to know that I'm not an atheist, but not convinced that I have every particle of truth. I try to be open-minded, and so I read Richard Dawkins as well as John Ortberg. I'm very interested in science, especially biology, and happily reconcile the notion of evolution with the idea of a Creative God.
A lot of people believe that in order to gain insight into the universe, one must start from scratch, and find the answers within oneself. Jajdude posted some very mystical stories last month about wise old men instructing their disciples not to pay any attention to the teachings of wise old men. It's all a bit circular and hypocritical.
My attitude is: "What do I know?" Really. Do I have the wisdom to construct a metaphysical outlook using only my own intuition, or what I determine to be "common sense"? That seems a bit arrogant, and needlessly reinventing the wheel.
I'm a Christian because I believe that love accomplishes everything worth doing, and I sense that this love has a source. I have considered the evidence for a historical Jesus, and found it sound enough. I've thought about Jesus' teachings and decided that the world would be a better place if they were practised. I've seen evidence of personal and miraculous changes brought about by prayer.
| Quote: |
Also, why do you think religious people don't make up the moral rules as they go along? Christians are hardly consistent in this regard, and a lot is open to interpretation. Finally, aetheists can live by staunch moral rules just as well as Christians. Morality does not equal religion. |
You're absolutely right here.
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
| Though women with no morals or very loose ones are a little difficult to find, they are fewer than you would think and harder to trust. Anyway, getting off track. Personally I am not sure why people who don't believe in God or religion feel they need to tell the world every two minutes or convert the rest of the world to thier belief. |
Again, it goes both ways. In terms of scale, religious people are worse though, if for no other reason than they are in the majority. |
I'm not sure I can agree with you re: the majority. Scroll through a few threads here on Dave's and count how many times someone unequivocally insists "There is no God!" versus the ones shouting "Jesus/Allah/Krishna Saves!" The Christians on Dave's (with the exception of a few, like Blynch) are far more respectful and kind than the open-minded, common-sense-inspired irreligious lot who speak their minds. |
Honestly.....if you had been brought up in Saudi Arabia would you be Muslim?
If you had been brought up in Mumbai would you be Hindi?
If you had been brought up in Thailand would you be Buddhist? |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| I'd like to answer that, but I can't. I'm sure my family has had an influence on me. However, plenty of people grow up in Christian families and go in another direction, while others end up as Christians despite an upbringing in another faith. I don't know what the major factor in religious belief is. |
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the eye
Joined: 29 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 1:29 am Post subject: |
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| Grimalkin wrote: |
Honestly.....if you had been brought up in Saudi Arabia would you be Muslim?
If you had been brought up in Mumbai would you be Hindi?
If you had been brought up in Thailand would you be Buddhist? |
I think that's a very good question. Especially of being born in a muslim state. I'd be willing to bet the christians here, woudl not be christians if born into another culture. |
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