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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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 Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:04 am Post subject: Somalia - another foreign policy error |
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The current humanitarian crisis and war is the worst of the worst. Who to blame?
A number of months back, many here stated and ra! ra! ed about how this was great -- ridding Somalia of evil "Taliban", Islamic terrorists.
Yet, I argued that atleast the place was stable, for the first time Somalis were making money, the economy was growing, there was security. Why should we cheer for a future of more death and destruction?? Especially given the fact that these "Islamists" were more than willing to cooperate with foreign governments and publically disowned terrorist activity????
Still America pushed for more chaos and cheered and funded Ethiopia and a small band of monied elite they called, "the government". Now look at it. This is one more thing that should be thrown in America's lap. Especially given the firesale of military hardware to a corrupt, human rights despairing Ethiopia.
And what of Somaliland???? Look at how this Islamic nation is doing, despite not getting any recognition from America and allies...Tribal based rule, muslim population, good governance. I guess America doesn't want that????
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/24/africa/AF-GEN-Somalia-Crisis.php
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Somalia facing humanitarian crisis as hundreds of thousands flee capital
The Associated PressPublished: April 23, 2007 |
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MOGADISHU, Somalia: There are no more hospital beds available in this bloodstained capital, and barely enough bandages to patch up the wounded. Even the bottles of medicine are running dry.
But still the patients keep pouring in � and they are the lucky ones, having survived another day of gunfire and mortar shells as Islamic insurgents battle troops allied to Somalia's fragile government.
"Even the shades of the trees are occupied at this point," Dahir Dhere, director of Medina Hospital, the largest health facility in Mogadishu, said Monday. "We are overwhelmed." |
DD |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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The only way the US can prop up its client regime in Somalia is through lawlessness and slaughter
This is the most lawless war of our generation. All wars of aggression lack legitimacy, but no conflict in recent memory has witnessed such mounting layers of illegality as the current one in Somalia. Violations of the UN charter and of international humanitarian law are regrettably commonplace in our age, and they abound in the carnage that the world is allowing to unfold in Mogadishu, but this war has in addition explicitly violated two UN security council resolutions. To complete the picture, one of these resolutions contravenes the charter itself.
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There was a time when security council resolutions were hallowed in most of the world, as for example resolution 242 demanding the return of occupied Palestine territory in exchange for peace. But in our new world order, the powerful decide which UN resolutions are passed, and whether they need to be honoured. So the United States, which was violating the UN arms embargo on Somalia, rushed through another resolution in December that it thought would better serve US goals - and then proceeded to violate that one as well.
The new resolution forbade neighbouring countries from being part of the regional peacekeeping force the security council authorised for Somalia; but Ethiopia went much further and unilaterally invaded, with the covert assistance of the US - which also joined the war by bombing Somalia.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2067438,00.html |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Deubel wrote: |
| ...at least the place was stable, for the first time Somalis were making money, the economy was growing, there was security. |
ROFL.
And let us definitely start a thread on Somalia and be damn sure we do not speak about the Somalis and Ethiopians themselves or Al Qaeda and other local actors -- or the veritable mess the Europeans left the place, either.
Ddeubel: you have one of the worst cases of U.S.-centrismitis I think I have ever seen.
Here are excerpts from State's backgrounder...
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| Somalia has been without a central government since 1991, and much of the territory has been subject to serious civil strife...Independence: July 1, 1960 (from a merger between the former Somaliland Protectorate under British rule, which became independent from the UK on June 26, 1960, and Italian Somaliland, which became independent from the Italian-administered UN trusteeship on July 1, 1960, to form the Somali Republic). Constitution: None in force...Much of Somalia remains plagued by inter-clan fighting and the lack of security, with some areas of relative peace and stability...Judicial--Supreme Court: not functioning; no nationwide system; informal justice system in some localities is based on previously codified law, Islamic (shari�a) and traditional courts based on customary practices. Legal system: none functioning; informal legal system based on previously codified law, Islamic (shari�a) law, customary practices, and the provisions of the Transitional Federal Charter. Political party: None... |
And it goes on like this.
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher,
If I recall, it was you that side tracked the last thread on Somalia. Accusing myself of fabricating a photo and having no knowledge of armnaments etc...... talk about not staying on subject.
But funny you come to this thread, I've been having an email discussion, tete a tete with the N.Y times columnist in Nairobi, covering Somalia and his article last week. He says many adroit things, like how peaceful and well governed Somalia was under the Islamists, mostly because the local businessmen / community, clans liked that they brought security but not corruption in the way of exhorbitant taxation. That is presently the crux of the problem. Business is putting their complaints into the arming of gangs. They don't want to pay these outside powerbrokers who sweet talked America into supporting them (much like Chalabi in Iraq) and now come into Somalia with Ethiopian support (U.S. proxy -- terrible human rights record but hey! they are Christian, our Christians!), come into Somalia and demand money, a take. Just a mafia racket and NOT A GOVERNMENT.
I will print some of our emails.
Further, if the U.S. cared, they would not arm the region but give economic support. Somaliland has done rather well despite no foreign support and being Muslim. They are peaceful, provide a government which balances the interests of clan and individual.
I'm not for Muslims in govt but let's be realistic. You say you are a realist. Given the situation, first has to come some basics of human life = water, food, shelter, safety. Then, let's see where we go from there......
The U.S. has done a disservice to this region. And they keep fabricating news stories fed by the people they back. What you termed about Iraq, politicizing the process...... Where are all the reported foreign fighters continually given as evidence of Al Qaeda? They are in Kenyan and Ethiopian captivity so why not produce them?????? As the N.Y. Times journalist admitted to me, they just have to believe it because why should they doubt it?? UGHHHH?????
Further, the U.S. sent arms FREE to Ethiopia, provided air support and generally kept a lid on the news from the region. Horrid in my opinion. People dying and they are playing geo politics. As a civilized nation their first priority should be peace, but alas.... it is not. And why this corrupt Bush admin has to go.....they have the wrong priorities....
Please watch the interview below, he outlines very well the mess that is Somalia and which America is to be rightly, partly blamed for......but yeah, so short is our memory...... www.democracynow.org
or directly here....please read, you'd be enlightened, or rather may I say "lightened" from all the @$#$@#$
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/04/27/1359254
As Salim Lone, a guy who has been there, done that for years and knows all about the region states in the interview....
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| In fact, most Somalis will not abide this occupation. I mean, this is what is most distressing about this fighting. All fighting is terrible, but you hope in the end something good comes out of it. But in this particular case, it is clear Somalis will not abide the Ethiopian occupation or the government they put in place there. So it is not going to be a successful war for the Somali government, for Ethiopia and, of course, for the US, which is the orchestrator of the whole adventure this time. |
| Quote: |
| Somalia~"The Most Lawless War of Our Generation" |
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Somalia~"The Most Lawless War of Our Generation" 2007.04.27 rm
� Salim Lone, a columnist for the Daily Nation in Kenya and a former spokesperson of the United Nations is interviewed from London.
Playable at www.DemocracyNow.org
BT clip interview starts at 12.40 min.
In Somali, fierce clashes in Mogadishu are being described as some of the heaviest fighting in the city's history. Some 329 people have been killed over the past ten days. This comes just three weeks after another series of battles claimed at least 1,000 lives.
The United Nations says more people - over 350,000 - have been displaced in Somalia in the past three months than anywhere else in the world. [includes rush transcript] In Somalia, clashes between U.S. backed-Ethiopian forces and fighters aligned with the Islamic Courts Union in the capital Mogadishu are being described as some of the heaviest fighting in the city's history.
Local human rights workers report at least 329 people have been killed over the past ten days. This comes just three weeks after another series of battles claimed at least 1,000 lives.
The fighting began in December when US-backed Ethiopian forces invaded Somalia. Four months ago today, Islamic fighters abandoned the capital, marking the official fall of the Islamic Courts Union, which had controlled Mogadishu for six months last year.
A humanitarian catastrophe now looms over Somalia. The United Nations says more people have been displaced in Somalia in the past three months than anywhere else in the world. Some 350,000 have fled fighting in Mogadishu since February, more than one-third of its population. That makes the rate of displacement in Somalia over the past three months worse than Iraq.
The escalating war in Somalia has received little attention in the U.S. media especially on broadcast television. Using the Lexis database, Democracy Now examined ABC, NBC and CBS's coverage of Somalia in the evening newscasts over the past three months. The result may surprise you: ABC and NBC has not mentioned the war at all. CBS mentioned the war once. The network dedicated a total of three sentences to the story. |
DD |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Oh dd, just claim to have lived there and call G a racist. Like you do in ALL your other "discussions".
Be sure to, write; with[ incorrect (as the great Poet UR MAM would have} punctuation# |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| BJWD wrote: |
| Oh dd, just claim to have lived there and call G a racist. Like you do in ALL your other "discussions"... |
But he did not just live there and feel its poetry, BJWD; he also has his finger on the pulse in the New York Times's reporting on this. Indeed, the reporters on the ground there engage him in email debates to be sure they are reporting the story right... 
And I accused you of fabricating a photo, Ddeubel? You need to get the facts right and your story straight. Do not be so lazy. Quote me if you want to take issue with something I have said.
Ddeubel, you like lectures and lecturing, so here is mine to you: there is far more that intelligent and sensitive people could do in apprehending and coming to terms with Somali affairs than simplistically focusing on -- indeed, scapegoating -- American foreign policy. In Somalia, like everywhere else in the world, my friend, local conditions and actors decisively shape, condition, and determine history's course -- external contributions notwithstanding.
You may recall, America attempted to stablize the place in the early 1990s -- and failed. And you preachily-mention "economic support." Absurd. Economic support to whom? What insitutions or legal system exist there that might suggest to us that such money would not simply disappear into one or another warlord's or Al Qaeda's pocket...?
In any case, if you want to identify the most significant external factors that have influenced Somali and the rest of Africa's affairs over the last century, please see Western and Southern Europe, the Soviet Union and Cuba, and certainly the United States as well.
But to blame it all on America strikes me as asinine and -- more to the point -- transparently U.S.-centric and antiAmerican. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Gopher,
May I remind you of what the thread is about????? Please read the title again.
You address nothing, in any substantial manner, regarding what I wrote about the invasion and over running of the Islamic Courts Union.
As always, you cry about how complex things are, how there are so many actors with so many agendas. How childish for anyone to reach any conclusions! Poppycock mate. Is this what the academic world teaches you -- to be so cautious as to become mere pap? to always say, paraphrase, "well, we can never be sure, who knows?"??? This side of you is rather sad.
I know all about the history, the actors. Please address the issues, as you stated you wished others to do in your first post. My issue is that the U.S. wrongly supported, aided, spun the issues to make a desperate nation, more desperate.
Please address the issue which Lone, a reputable former U.N. spokesperson for Iraq makes regarding;
1. Ban and his call for U.N. troops
| Quote: |
| for him to propose that the UN should now go in to do what the US and Ethiopia have been unable to do, which is basically to impose a client regime on Somalia, it's just absolutely disgraceful. I mean, I read that report to the Security Council, and it is hard to believe that Mr. Ban Ki-moon is the Secretary-General of the United Nations. It is so blatantly and comprehensively one-sided. There is not a word about the fact that the Ethiopians are there without any international legitimacy. They're occupiers. They violated the UN Charter. They were not in any danger of being attacked, and they invaded. So this notion must also -- this notion that a coalition of the willing must be formed -- as you know, that was how the first Gulf War was fought. |
2. Secret U.S. prisons in Kenya and Ethiopia. People verified to be in them and verified CIA officials there on the ground, "interrogating"...
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You know, I mean, this whole enterprise -- the kidnappings on Kenyan streets, the grabbing refugees coming across the border -- has a �Made in America� stamp on it, because you�ve seen it all happen before. And these secret prisons, the US denies any responsibility in this whole operation. And yet, we know that CIA and FBI officials are in those prisons interviewing the inmates.
We also know, by the way, that many of the people who have disappeared are not in those secret prisons. Where are those people? Have they be killed? Are they being tortured somewhere else? This is, you know, utter lawlessness. |
3. the Somalia "proxy" prime minister who makes his first statement about laws as enacting legislation to invite American oil companies in....
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| But this -- you know, the prime minister�s attempt to lure Western oil companies is on a par with his crying wolf about al-Qaeda at every turn. Every time you interview a Somalia official, the first thing you hear is al-Qaeda and terrorists. They�re using that. No one believes it. No one believes it at all, because all independent reports say the contrary. But they are using that to try to develop support. |
4. The U.S. sanctioned sale by N.Korea of arms to Ethiopia as well as the Pentagon yearly giving the Ethiopian military regime/machine, free credits, piles of used and stockpiled made in america arms/hardware.
5. Finally, as I stated above, the illegality of the invasion.
Basically, the U.S. orchestrated much in this region. Don't pull your --- they don't control the world card again. Address the issues. Lots they are involved in, not just alleged.
I am against this U.S. administration meddling again and again.....basically with the press spokesman led pretense and tune which the U.S. spokesperson in the interview states very well and which I say are more "smokescreen", lies, lies and damn lies....
| Quote: |
| but there are clearly people there, individuals who are intent upon using violence in order to further a so-called political cause. And we have seen that in other areas around the world. And what can't be allowed to happen is for those forces to gain a foothold to develop a safe haven, from which they could possibly launch attacks against other states in the region and further. |
SOUNDS LIKE THIS COULD ALSO BE AMERICA, n'est pas?
As to your own Gopher and BJWDs personal attacks. I can take them. You guys hate anyone with a conscience, who will speak up and say what is just and right. You prefer people as widgets and ideas as bookmarks. I don't. I've lived and continue to live, an engaged life. I will speak from the pulpit, so such allegations and putrid breeze do not but refresh me.
DD |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| May I remind you of what the thread is about????? Please read the title again. |
Thanks. I take your point. Just read the thread's title again.
This thread aims to reduce Somali affairs to a simplisitc, monocausal analysis: "another foreign-policy error." Then you set up your standard, allegation-driven, U.S.-centric, antiAmerican discourse with the following loaded question: "Who to blame...?"
I addressed your "blame" framework and now you respond, as usual, that I fail to address the loaded problem you wished to "discuss" with your correligionists here. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
I can take them. You guys hate anyone with a conscience, who will speak up and say what is just and right. You prefer people as widgets and ideas as bookmarks. I don't. I've lived and continue to live, an engaged life. I will speak from the pulpit, so such allegations and putrid breeze do not but refresh me.
DD |
What BJWD, myself, and many others on this board don't like about your posts are:
A) the core ideological content as well as your opinions themselves
B) the self-absorbed writing style
C) the blatant hypocrisy, i.e. 'you guys call me names because you are small and petty and don't live life well, etc'
Gopher and I have a lot of criticisms of Bush's foreign policy, but you will never be able to exploit that common ground with us. For answer as to why, see above. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=2&ItemID=12513
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The European Union (EU) and the United States have �urged� Somalia�s weak and illegitimate Transitional Federal Government (TFG) to negotiate with �moderate� elements of the Islamic Courts and other stakeholders in order to form a broad-based and inclusive transitional authority which can advance reconciliation and secure peace. Such a push by the USA and EU is a tacit recognition that the TFG is illegitimate. The EU, unlike the United States which has supported Ethiopia�s invasion of Somalia and which has endorsed the TFG, informed the latter that it was not prepared to release funds to help the country unless the latter committed itself to the creation of an inclusive government
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The United States and the European Union, despite their differential stances on the Ethiopian intervention, share the idea that a government of national unity can be an instrument for reconciliation and legitimacy for the TFG. Neither the EU nor the USA has articulated how a genuine reconciliation process could be possible in the presence of the Ethiopian occupation force and sectarian TFG militias and the carnage in Mogadishu.
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:09 am Post subject: |
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If people recall, I was one of those people who was cautious about the aspect of Ethiopian and American intervention in Somalia. Well, the story in Somalia isn't finished. Ethiopia has put itself in a difficult position since it has a large Somali minority which it should never have acquired, because then it acquired a larger Muslim population. Ethiopia would be more Christian, otherwise, and it is likely that ethnic Somalis that are Ethiopian citizens can pose a problem. Hopefully, the tribesmen will be able to route out the Islamists. At any rate, I am not for an Islamist regime in Somalia. I don't think the clans generally want that either, but Islamists are more ideologically committed than the clans.
I can understand Ethiopia and the U.S. intervening, because they didn't want the legitimate government to fall. However, Somalia is now like Afghanistan.
I don't have any answers except to say that the clans in Somalia and militias need to work together and wipe out the Islamists. It is going to get very bloody with revenge killings in Somalia. I will predict it getting worse. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| At any rate, I am not for an Islamist regime in Somalia. I don't think the clans generally want that either, but Islamists are more ideologically committed than the clans. |
Adventurer,
What the clans want is for calm and a good business environment. Substitute the word, "clan" for "business" and you are more "on". Yes, there are familial ties but the thing everything is done for and revolves around is commerce/money. The notion of clan in the American, western mindset of blood thirsty , rabid, gun totting youth and thugs is just so much simpleton stuff and bears no real thought about the dynamics on the ground....and it is that kind of simple minded view that drives American policy forward into the dark now.....
The Islamists offered peace and good government (atleast in the short term, they never were given a longer look) but as I stated and which is continually stated in all reports I read about the situation on the ground. Voice of America included, IS .... they didn't ask exhorbitant taxes, fees. They didn't ask for protection money, extort based on power...... This is the problem beyond the very first thing, that occupiers are in Somalia and will never have a place at the table ......
As to your assertion, that the government , the proxy government was "legitmate".....please show me how. I will respond in kind. But I will state that I find that govt in NO way legitimate. Not a voice of the Somali people, nor a hope for the future....just suits trying to have power and sway and using the powers of the region to get their foot in the door.
DD |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Kuros,
Once again you are wrong. I am not looking for common ground.....discussion is about being honest about who you are and those others engaged in the debate, being honest about themselves. The common ground comes after, in reflection and growth. Not winning and losing as you and Gopher see all these words. [and I remember Gopher's own admission of "I'm know more than all of you"...don't you???]
But, Okay , you win! Yippee! Be done with it. But I will still say my peace and sing my song and speak of truth, not brownie points. For a further study on the position of those who will speak out, visit here below, .....what I really wanted to say. We need people to speak of their conscience and to be idealistic enough to demand justice and reaffirm the declaration of the rights of man, created free and with inalienable rights..... But then again, that is just a footnote for you....
We will be here today , tomorrow, even when. ....... We will not be silenced......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObNdrI-8nhw Or here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWPNF5KfAtY
DD |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| At any rate, I am not for an Islamist regime in Somalia. I don't think the clans generally want that either, but Islamists are more ideologically committed than the clans. |
Adventurer,
What the clans want is for calm and a good business environment. Substitute the word, "clan" for "business" and you are more "on". Yes, there are familial ties but the thing everything is done for and revolves around is commerce/money. The notion of clan in the American, western mindset of blood thirsty , rabid, gun totting youth and thugs is just so much simpleton stuff and bears no real thought about the dynamics on the ground....and it is that kind of simple minded view that drives American policy forward into the dark now.....
The Islamists offered peace and good government (atleast in the short term, they never were given a longer look) but as I stated and which is continually stated in all reports I read about the situation on the ground. Voice of America included, IS .... they didn't ask exhorbitant taxes, fees. They didn't ask for protection money, extort based on power...... This is the problem beyond the very first thing, that occupiers are in Somalia and will never have a place at the table ......
As to your assertion, that the government , the proxy government was "legitmate".....please show me how. I will respond in kind. But I will state that I find that govt in NO way legitimate. Not a voice of the Somali people, nor a hope for the future....just suits trying to have power and sway and using the powers of the region to get their foot in the door.
DD |
I have an understanding of what clans mean in Somalia. However, the heads of clans don't want to be undermined by any government whether Islamist or non-Islamist. As far as the government, it was a UN recognized government as far as I can recall. Of course, legitimate is relative. Certainly, the Islamists weren't legimate, but they provided a stable regime for the people in their brief stint in power. Anyway, the bloodshed we see may not be worse than what happened before the U.S. arrived when Bush senior sent in the troops. Chaos is not a stranger in Somalia. I hope they will come to some kind of compromise. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| However, the heads of clans don't want to be undermined by any government whether Islamist or non-Islamist. |
I agree but that is the same with business all over the world. They will put in their lot with whoever they see best sets out the conditions for their own success...... Unfortunately you've had lawlessness for a long time and they have built up their own security apparatus. The way to get their guns off the street is not to bring in a bigger authority which demands but to work by first showing them good governance and cooperation and then slowly through time, step by step, getting them to lay down arms. It is not a one off -- like the U.N. , the U.S. and all those outside want.
| Quote: |
| As far as the government, it was a UN recognized government as far as I can recall. Of course, legitimate is relative. Certainly, the Islamists weren't legimate, but they provided a stable regime for the people in their brief stint in power. |
Yes, it is relative. This government was first set up in Djibouti in 2000. Then, received U.N. funding and backing in 2004. Legitimate? No. Not endorsed by the Somali people and it consists of war criminals and is loaded with the remnants of Barre's corrupt and vicious gang (General Gani for one) . Sorry, that is the case. The only legitimate government is in Somaliland where peace exists yet because they don't play with the big boys, there has been no international recognition whatsoever, despite a well run plebicite on independence.
What the problem is, is that it is outsiders imposing their will. Atleast with the ICU, it was an internal power. They could have a hope of resolving things internally.
One analyst recently said,
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| Prime Minister Gedi of the TFG recently said, �It is totally misguided not to accept the government. The alternative is chaos.� Unfortunately, he�s got it exactly backwards. It is, in fact, the attempts to impose a government on Somalia that create chaos. |
I agree with him. We should also remember that the last great hope for real long term peace came in 2000 with president Hassan. A real chance. And what happened? Ethiopia came into the picture, meddling with more U.S. backing and sided with 2 large clans. They sent Hassan packing........ ah, we don't remember at all.
Here is a good rundown of that time frame.
http://www.iss.co.za/pubs/papers/87/Paper87.htm
DD |
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