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Coffeecup
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
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 Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:48 am Post subject: Quick culture snippet - good bad or in between? |
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Why is it that even with the "nicest" of Koreans (or Far Easterners for that matter) there still is that irritating concrete wall between you and them. Well I'll get specific.
This family of 5, nice people, they are actually the head of a church. I work with their children sometimes, and they have assisted me a few times (officially administered a test for a distance learning class).
So I found out their childrens' computer monitor is no longer working well, and as they are the church type I recommended them not to go out and buy a new one because people throw them away alot and it's just a matter of time before one will pop up. Better yet, I tell them I will "lend" them my spare monitor I keep for safety (and for my old Win95 desktop). Of course, in the West "lend" means "keep it as long as you care and if I really need it I might let you know" -- in otherwords, "it's cool, it's casual, don't worry about it."
But they say, it's like they want to own a monitor, not just use one. So I continue to emphasize, "no just uuuussseeee it (as long as you like)." Somehow they don't seem to trust me -- even though I've basically implied "take the damn thing" without giving them official ownership, they say they either want to pay me money or they will go out and buy one. So finally I just said, keep this until we can find a new one for you.
Oh, and on top of that, despite otherwise really being an almost "angelic" natured family with general friendliness and no air of hostility, I guess I could say that they are the same people that wrecked my girlfriend and my plans to move into a place together about 4 months ago -- even though it was a two-bedroom. Well now she is rather becoming my ex-gf. It was really pretty messed up -- she and I actually already started to move some stuff in there, and then one day they were helping her and saw some boxes in the other bedroom (my stuff). They (the wife) vigilantly reminded her of Christian principles, and the next day my gf informs me the move in is off. Btw, I actually don't think it was the "he's a white man" thing, but just "you shouldn't have sex before marriage."
Why is it that even the nicest of Koreans can almost seem like your enemy? You people have to forgive me, as of yet my experience around Koreans is not everyday-all-day like you folks.
(Flames are not welcome)
Any comments, either direct on the topic or vaguely related are appreciated. Oh and if you want you can put it in a PrivMsg instead, whichever is fine. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| Why is it a good thing when you force your values on them (be thrifty and get a used monitor), but a bad thing when they remind someone else of what their values are (no sex before marriage)? |
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Coffeecup
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| be thrifty and get a used monitor |
Oh, actually I was helping them out. Wouldn't want to see them, already of low income, spend $100+ when monitors get thrown away all the time, sitting out in the streets fresh from having been thrown away only an hour before. I've scooped up 3 alone that way.
In addition, they wholeheartedly, smilingly agreed with me about either finding a monitor or buying one super cheap. So the used monitor wasn't a forced "value." As for canceling my move in, it could be added that they canceled it after I'd already given my notice to my previous landlord and essentially was at risk of being out of a place to live, which almost happened. Nonetheless the next 3 weeks after that was nerve-racking until I found another place, under pressure and not at free will to select it comfortably. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| Coffeecup wrote: |
| Oh, actually I was helping them out. |
You are aware that it's considered to be very low class in Korea to pick up trash like that? Instead of being a monitor, pretend it was used underwear that had been cleaned. "Save $2!". Would you want to do start wearing underwear your friend picked up off the street?
That's the imaginary line you crossed when you were trying to have them get a used monitor off the street.
Same time, they could argue by their values they were doing you a favor. Sex and moving in before marriage devalues the act of a marriage in the eyes of many.
Which brings us back to the original point I had raised. You were pushing your values on them while complaining when they pushed their values on you. |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Good on ya for trying to help these people. I think that the idea of borrowing, and second hand stuff is frowned upon in Korea, so that was prolly their problem on issue #1( monitor)
On #2, Did the people actually cancel your lease themselves, or did they just talk to your girlfriend about the morality of moving in with you. If they cancelled the lease then they are busybodies, plain and simple. If not then you need to realize that your girlfriend made the decision. I'm assuming she's a grown woman who's capable of making her own decisions.If she was ready and really wanted to, then nothing anyone said could change her mind. |
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BTM
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Back in the saddle.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Korean christians are frequently bad news, in my experience. Even more so than your garden-variety North American Xians.
And Gord, although he is being supercilious and stuff, may well be right in this case. Then again, not having all the facts in the case, he may be talking out his butt. Hard to say, hard to say. 
Regardless, I quite like the underwear simile.
OK, I'm done. Please feel free to return to your regularly scheduled thread. |
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Coffeecup
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks alot for all replies.
I should make it clear that this setting is in California, not Korea.
BTM:
| Quote: |
| Korean christians are frequently bad news, in my experience. |
Yah you know, I've heard that a few times before, but very limited, little side comments similar to that, but I really don't know what the particulars are. The only time I clearly remember what was said was something along the lines that Christian institutes in Korea tend to pay far less than other places, and I guess they max you out on responsibility(?). Otherwise I've never heard they are evil or "satanic" or something, just the pay comment. I would like to find out more though. Like I said, on the one hand they are all smiles and ideally kind and giving, on the other hand they are like detectives ready to investigate anything, such as you and your girlfriend. (i.e. you and your gf are not full grown adults, even though you really are).
| Quote: |
| Then again, not having all the facts in the case, he may be talking out his butt. |
Whether he really is right on or not is hard to tell, but you made the same point that I thought: his points seem to have been from "jumping right in" and did not seem to consider very important factors involved in the situation.
As for the underwear simile, I most definately disagree. Underwear has grotesque germs, not to mention a psychology that someones crotch was rubbing the same material as yours is now. Computer monitors sit on a table top, at few feet away, and with today's auto-buttons never have to be touched. Some quick wiping will remove any germs possible. Furthermore, underwear can be bought at a dollar a piece. Computer monitors, new, can run $100+. The score of getting a free, shiny nice looking bright monitor has no relation to underwear, especially when their's is currently KIA and all they can do is stare at the wall. But again, monitors: not on person. Underwear: in your crotch.
Peppermint said:
| Quote: |
| Good on ya for trying to help these people. |
Yah I thought so too, and was surprised no one else said that or acknowledged my helpfulness.
| Quote: |
| If they cancelled the lease then they are busybodies, plain and simple. If not then you need to realize that your girlfriend made the decision. |
Let's just say they lambasted and psychologically assaulted her -- as in, "I've known you for 13 years since high school, if you move into this house with that guy, I am not sure what I will think of you then, not to mention what we will need to tell everyone else back in Korea." In otherwords, along that proposition, they made the decision for her, obviously. While that sentence may not have been the exact words, that was basically the gist and point.
Gord. Gord, gord, gord.... Tsk, tsk, tsk. I guess I should have known this board is flooded with the modern day apologists/self-flagellating-appeasers. Either that or you were just in an "understand Korea - deny the West" mode. Again, the fact that this setting is in America should at least allow me more leverage in living the life under more Western terms.
But then there are some people who feel most nations have very defining histories and guidelines for living, while America is just simply a weigh-station for anyone of any type, to impose their ways of life on others with stone hard vigilance.
| Quote: |
| Sex and moving in before marriage devalues the act of a marriage in the eyes of many. |
Here in California, for example, you are considered wierd if you've been dating long term and are not having sex and/or consider moving in together. But I can see how in your point of view, my situation should be viewed not in balance, but only form the perspective that she is Korean and "that's that." I.E. We Westerners lose all bargaining value because, well, we don't have a culture but we simply should adjust to others' cultures.
What about the fact that she and I are full-grown adults (out of our early 20s, to say the least  ), that we've been in a relationship for 3 years, that no one has ever bothered to help us out in other times but they sure like to prevent us when we want to move closer to each other, or how about the fact that life is very difficult -- not to mention more expensive -- when you live alone as opposed to being with someone in CA? Or how about the fact that she as a student would have even greater help and assistance from me for her classes had we lived together, not to mention we would have been able to provide increased psychological support instead of only meeting once a week as it has been? Or how about the fact that, here in America, except for murder, anything about you is no one elses damn business? Like I said, we hardly expose ourselves to many people at all, nor does it seem that most other times anyone even inquires about us (i.e. who are you living with, etc).
In other words, it would have been far more valuable -- and it would have been no one's business -- had we moved in together (NO ONE seems to ask about us at any other time). Because, America is America, and yes we do have a culture and we do have a way of life, even though the appeasers like to deny their own in "toleration" of others. Hey Gord, please do me a favor. You've already beaten the "toleration" horse many times in this thread, not to mention I am already very familiar with that mindset already, very extensively. Please do not respond to this thread anymore so that I may finally hear an opinion(s) of someone who has a more rounded viewpoint. I've heard yours thoroughly. Thanks alot, but lets move on. And as I said, if anyone would prefer they can zap their comment to me anonymously in email or pm... |
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Squid
Joined: 25 Jul 2003
Location: Sunny Anyang
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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...serves you right for hanging around with bible bashers.
Koreans think anything thrown away, no matter how "Shiny" (Love that), is trash. Handing them something second-hand?- may as well hand them your last turd for the look it'll get.
Yours Squidly.  |
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peppermint
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: traversing the minefields of caddishness.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, you definitely should have mentioned that these things didn't happen in Korea in the original post.
WRT the Christian thing. The Christian people that I've met in Korea tend to be much more in your face about religon then they are at home. (Granted, in North America, with all the sex scandals in the church, many people are ashamed to admit they are Christian.) They can be quite pushy, in a well meaning way, about getting people to go to church etc.
Back to the girlfriend issue, was she raised in Korea, or by very traditional parents in North America? If so, what happened is a Korean culture thing. Because of Confucianism, the relationships in a society are the most important thing, so appearing moral and respectful is everything.
Isn't it possible that your girlfriend had doubts about the relationship before those people spoke to her and what they said just helped her make a decision? You did say that you were breaking up. If she was raised in North America, and allowed to make her own decisions like most North American girls of any race, then it's entirely likely that this was HER decision.
Look on the bright side, at least the breakup is less messy since you aren't living together, no fighting over the stuff like pets 
Sorry man, but it sounds like you're just having a rough time with this breakup and looking for someone to blame besides eachother. ( Insert usual post-breakup pep talk here) |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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So I politely explain to you the difference in cultures and how you were doing exactly what you were complaining others were doing, and you reply with insults aimed at me rather than thanking me for bringing your attention to your hypocrasy?
Such is the problem. You still look at yourself as being perfect and can do no wrong. You continue to demand that others follow your values and complain when other people cast their values on you.
I find great humour in that the entire theme of your rant was about how others tell you what to do while complaining that people won't listen to you or do what you ask of them. |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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Gord,
There's a big difference between offering someone a used computer monitor and interfering in someone's personal life.
Surely even you can see that. |
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The Man known as The Man
Joined: 29 Mar 2003
Location: 3 cheers for Ted Haggard oh yeah!
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| Posted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| matko wrote: |
Gord,
There's a big difference between offering someone a used computer monitor and interfering in someone's personal life.
Surely even you can see that. |
Not when they are Korean Chrstians and The Head of their Church.
Naivete. |
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Corporal
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| You still look at yourself as being perfect and can do no wrong. You continue to demand that others follow your values and complain when other people cast their values on you. |
Gord,
Don't project your problems onto the OP. He was not demanding that anyone follow his values, but rather puzzled that they seemed to be saying one thing to his face and singing a different tune when push came to shove. A valid thing to post about when struggling to unify East and West. Please save your enlightened viewpoint for someone who wants it; the OP made it clear he wasn't looking for your type of unhelpful response, and yet you persisted in giving it. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| You are aware that it's considered to be very low class in Korea to pick up trash like that? Instead of being a monitor, pretend it was used underwear that had been cleaned. "Save $2!". Would you want to do start wearing underwear your friend picked up off the street? |
doesn't stop the pervs in nippon from buying undies from the bubblegum machines, though, does it? |
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matko
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: in a world of hurt!
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| Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| Gord wrote: |
| You are aware that it's considered to be very low class in Korea to pick up trash like that? Instead of being a monitor, pretend it was used underwear that had been cleaned. "Save $2!". Would you want to do start wearing underwear your friend picked up off the street? |
doesn't stop the pervs in nippon from buying undies from the bubblegum machines, though, does it? |
Actually, that has been banned.
Not to happy about it  |
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