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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:36 am Post subject: Zionists and the holocaust |
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This topic has come up in another thread, and seems to have devolved into a bunch of wackjob links being tossed around to the general merriment of all concerned. I thought this topic deserves an honest airing, so I decided to start my own thread.
First off, I recommend that anyone interested in the subject get ahold of Eichmann In Jerusalem, by Hannah Arendt. The book is based on her reportage of the trial, originally published in The New Yorker magazine. Zionist complicity is not the main focus of her discussion, but it does get a fair bit of coverage, especially in regards to the fate of Hungarian Jews(see below).
It's been awhile since I read the book, so I decided to do a google on it and see what I could find. I came accross a review, from The Nation, of two books, one by a professor at Tel Aviv University, and the other by an historian at the Hebrew University. I post the following not really to make a point on one side or another, but just because given what's been written elsewhere on the board, I think people might find it of some interest.
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In the 1954 Kastner affair, the carefully policed boundary between victim and perpetrator all but evaporated, upsetting the stability of Israel's entire political system. The controversy broke out after a 71-year-old Hungarian Jew, Malkiel Gruenwald, published a pamphlet in which he accused another Hungarian Jew, 48-year-old Dr. Rudolf Kastner, of collaborating with the Nazis in Hungary between 1944 and 1945. Kastner had assumed various leadership roles within the Jewish community in Hungary and Transylvania before and during the war, including the chairmanship of the "rescue committee" of Jews who escaped from countries occupied by Nazi Germany. After arriving in Palestine in 1946, he became a prominent member of Ben-Gurion's ruling Labor party (then known as Mapai) and was to be its candidate for the Knesset in the coming election. Kastner also occupied several influential positions, including spokesman of the Trade and Industry Ministry, director of broadcasting in Hungarian and Romanian, chief editor of Uj Kelet (a Hungarian daily) and chairman of the Organization of Hungarian Jewry in Israel.
According to Gruenwald, Kastner, in his capacity as a Jewish community leader in Hungary, had provided indispensable assistance to SS Lieutenant Col. Adolf Eichmann in the latter's efforts to ship a half-million Hungarian and Transylvanian Jews to the extermination camps. At the time Eichmann was head of the Gestapo department in charge of Jewish matters and population evacuation. Eichmann had been largely responsible for the deportation to the East of nearly 190,000 Austrian Jews from March 1938 onward. Eichmann had also participated in the January 1942 Wannsee conference, where the administrative and logistic details of the "final solution to the Jewish problem" were settled. He was not, it must be underscored, a policy-maker in the Third Reich, and his activities and decisions were mostly bureaucratic. Even his negotiations with the Jewish dignitaries and Nazi-appointed or self-appointed Judenr�te were aimed at achieving a well-organized and well-run transportation process to the camps. His role, on arriving in Budapest in March 1944, was to send a half-million Hungarian Jews to their death as swiftly and efficiently as possible.
To accomplish this goal, Eichmann needed Jewish collaborators like Kastner, since he was understaffed, with an SS team of 150 men and only a few thousand Hungarian soldiers at his disposal. Eichmann knew that the Jews would not go voluntarily to the so-called resettlement areas at the behest of the Nazis or the Hungarian authorities. The only people they would trust were their own leaders. Here, Kastner played a major role. He and his staff had to make sure that the Jews were not informed of the real destination of the trains. Misled by Kastner and others like him, the Jews showed up dutifully at the trains in the belief that they were merely being resettled. Some even made efforts to get on the earlier trains in order to have a better choice of housing in the new settlements. In exchange for Kastner's help, Gruenwald alleged, the Nazis gave the gift of life in June 1944, organizing a special rescue train for him and 1,600 Jewish notables, including Kastner's relatives and friends.
Charged with slander by Israel's attorney general, Gruenwald hired the services of a young, able and highly motivated lawyer, Shmuel Tamir. Tamir had his own political agenda, as did Gruenwald and the judge presiding over the trial, Benjamin Halevi. All three men were veterans of the right-wing Lehi underground during the British colonial period and were vehement opponents of Ben-Gurion's government, which Kastner represented. During the trial, one of Israel's most dramatic ever, Tamir succeeded in turning the tables on his client's accuser, arguing that the Jewish leadership in Palestine had sabotaged a series of attempts to rescue Jews during the Holocaust. In his verdict, which cleared the accused of slander, Judge Halevi rejected most of Gruenwald's charges against the Jewish leadership (during Eichmann's trail, the judge would maintain a discreet silence about this painful issue), but he accepted the main one: that Kastner had collaborated with the Nazis and "sold his soul to the devil."
Following the Gruenwald verdict, an appeal was submitted to the High Court of Justice, but in March 1957 Kastner was assassinated. Three people were arrested, accused and sentenced for the murder, but even today the assassination is a matter of contention. The official version is that the assassins belonged to a tiny right-wing underground group inspired by the fringe right-wing zealot Israel (Sheib) Eldad. Zertal's account, however, is closer to the alternative version, advanced by extremist right- and left-wing groups, according to which Kaster was eliminated by the state security services because he proved too much of an embarrassment for the government. Posthumously, the High Court cleared Kastner of responsibility for any of the crimes of which Gruenwald accused him, except for that of false testimony on behalf of Nazi officer Kurt Becher at the Nuremberg trial.
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However, Arendt did not believe that the rise of the nation-state and its bureaucratization sufficed as an explanation of the Nazi genocide. More controversially, she also turned to an examination of the social structure of the Jewish communities and the nature of their leadership and representatives. Drawing upon Raul Hilberg's exhaustive research in The Destruction of the European Jews (a book that has never been translated into Hebrew and is not quoted in Israel), she provided an unsparing anatomy of the ways in which the European Jewish communities facilitated Nazi purposes--for example, by providing lists and addresses of their members and their property. She also analyzed the ways in which most of the Jewish leadership consciously collaborated with the Nazis. Law-abiding to a fault, they filled out endless forms (about their property), policed themselves, funded the "project of resettlement," went to the concentration points and entered the trains of "resettlement," while most of their leaders were fully aware of the railroad destination. The Nazi officers and clerks were surprised at how obediently the Jews went to their death.
Thus, the Kastner case cannot be considered as an isolated one, but should be seen as part of a syndrome that characterized both Eastern and Western organized Jewish communities. As Arendt pointed out, in cities where the Jews were less tightly organized, or where the leadership warned the population or refused to collaborate with the Nazis, many more Jews survived. Had the Nazis been forced to hunt individuals or families, they would have needed more time and manpower to accomplish their mission. By a uniquely cruel twist of fate, what had been for generations a vehicle of Jewish survival became, in the hands of their enemies, one of the major tools for their physical annihilation. Contrary to Arendt's often vituperative critics, this analysis does not reduce the perpetrators' responsibility--if anything, it makes the Holocaust even more monstrous.
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Again, I do recommend that anyone interested read Eichmann In Jerusalem. Though the books discussed above sound pretty interesting, as well as more up-to-date on the scholarship.
http://www.intheshadowoftheholocaust.com/thenation.htm |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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Yes, and I posted this on that thread. But I would much rather participate in yours. Here's what I wrote earlier:
No one in the academic community, anywhere as far as I am aware, disputes the Nazi Holocaust or the fact that the Nazis murdered approximately six million Jews (and gypsies and many others).
The issues that remain in dispute pertain to difficult questions like the one you reference above, "the German question," "How could this happen in an advanced society?", "Was it only the Nazis, in secret, or did many sectors of German society at least tacitly know of and approve of it?", etc.
See Hitler's Willing Executioners, besides the work you reference, for one controversial treatment of several of these issues.
In any case, only neoNazis, other antisemites (like Igotthisguitar), some of the "conspiracy freaks" (like Igotthisguitar), and the Iranian president and his flatterers question or dispute the Holocaust or the six million figure.
When we defeated Nazi Germany, we captured most of the govt, too, including vast amounts of documents (really, unprecedented in world history). There was also much testimony and additional documents from the various corporations involved at Nuremburg.
Professional historians, for well over sixty years, have devoted much energy to this data, and, in many cases, produced even more data. The literature on this subject is huge.
These facts, then, are simply not in dispute. |
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Bulsajo
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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In any case, only neoNazis, other antisemites (like Igotthisguitar), some of the "conspiracy freaks" (like Igotthisguitar), and the Iranian president and his flatterers question or dispute the Holocaust or the six million figure.
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Better add Ilsanman to your list. |
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Harpeau
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Location: Coquitlam, BC
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: |
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On the other hand Thanks for the link. a very interesting read. I don't think Igotthisguitar is anti-Semitic. (Ilsanman, I don't have a clue; don't know him.) It would seem that some people use the term anti-Semitic as a type of weapon of sorts. Remember, Semitic people are not only Jewish, but also include Arabs, etc.  |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Yes, and I posted this on that thread. But I would much rather participate in yours. Here's what I wrote earlier:
No one in the academic community, anywhere as far as I am aware, disputes the Nazi Holocaust or the fact that the Nazis murdered approximately six million Jews (and gypsies and many others).
The issues that remain in dispute pertain to difficult questions like the one you reference above, "the German question," "How could this happen in an advanced society?", "Was it only the Nazis, in secret, or did many sectors of German society at least tacitly know of and approve of it?", etc.
See Hitler's Willing Executioners, besides the work you reference, for one controversial treatment of several of these issues.
In any case, only neoNazis, other antisemites (like Igotthisguitar), some of the "conspiracy freaks" (like Igotthisguitar), and the Iranian president and his flatterers question or dispute the Holocaust or the six million figure.
When we defeated Nazi Germany, we captured most of the govt, too, including vast amounts of documents (really, unprecedented in world history). There was also much testimony and additional documents from the various corporations involved at Nuremburg.
Professional historians, for well over sixty years, have devoted much energy to this data, and, in many cases, produced even more data. The literature on this subject is huge.
These facts, then, are simply not in dispute. |
It's a sign of the times.
How can it be possible that our grandfathers, friends and dads fought in this war, but some want to deny this? Some of whom, died serving our country to bring us the great freedoms that we have today.
What, my grandfather was in on the conspiracy? He lied all his life so he could be a farmer? Or my family friend, who flew in D-Day, just lied about it, and concocted the stories and honor so he could be a regular joe?
Iran and others who spread lies about these conspiracies dishonor the memory of those who fought for us and for some of us, our families. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Five Eagles,
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Iran and others who spread lies about these conspiracies dishonor the memory of those who fought for us and for some of us, our families. |
everything you said was bang on until this............please note that just like in the case of the United States, the president is NOT Iran. Don't label Iranians with such bigotry. It is purely state sponsored and not people sponsored, as is too much of the U.S.A. terror this and that rhetoric.
You do a disservice to your family who sacrificed by doing the same thing as all tyrants and propagandists, labeling and objectifying whole swaths of humanity...
I hope and trust you see my point.
DD |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Five Eagles,
| Quote: |
Iran and others who spread lies about these conspiracies dishonor the memory of those who fought for us and for some of us, our families. |
everything you said was bang on until this............please note that just like in the case of the United States, the president is NOT Iran. Don't label Iranians with such bigotry. It is purely state sponsored and not people sponsored, as is too much of the U.S.A. terror this and that rhetoric.
You do a disservice to your family who sacrificed by doing the same thing as all tyrants and propagandists, labeling and objectifying whole swaths of humanity...
I hope and trust you see my point.
DD |
Changed.
Last edited by fiveeagles on Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:09 am Post subject: |
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deleted. see below...
Last edited by On the other hand on Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Gopher wrote:
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See Hitler's Willing Executioners, besides the work you reference, for one controversial treatment of several of these issues.
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Goldhagen, I believe, is regarded as a rather hardcore proponent of what historiographers call the "intentionalist school" of holocaust studies, which holds that the holocaust resulted from a deliberate and centralized plan of extermination, hatched at an early date by the upper ranks of the Nazi leadership.
The functionalist school, on the other hand, argues that the holocaust resulted from decisions made at lower levels of the Nazi bureaucracy, with some functionalists claiming that the decision to start murdering Jews came about only after plans to deport them from Europe had fallen through.
From what I can tell as an amateur observer, the extreme intentionalist school has fallen out of favour as of late. I seem to recall that Goldhagen's book being widely lambasted, even among in intentionalist circles. And Raul Hilberg, the dean of holocaust studies, is now usually considered in the functionalist school.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_versus_intentionalism |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Excellent. You cite what is really at the heart of the debate on the Holocaust and its meaning.
I would not have expected anyone to reference the functionalists and intentionalists on this board. Pleasantly surprised.
If you will pardon the crude analogy, Goldhagen acted (and not intentionally so) as a kind of troll in the academic community. Many were quite unhappy with his book. Several German historians, in fact, accused him of showing how the West was wholly uncomfortable with German reunification. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
Five Eagles,
| Quote: |
Iran and others who spread lies about these conspiracies dishonor the memory of those who fought for us and for some of us, our families. |
everything you said was bang on until this............please note that just like in the case of the United States, the president is NOT Iran. Don't label Iranians with such bigotry. It is purely state sponsored and not people sponsored, as is too much of the U.S.A. terror this and that rhetoric.
You do a disservice to your family who sacrificed by doing the same thing as all tyrants and propagandists, labeling and objectifying whole swaths of humanity...
I hope and trust you see my point.
DD |
After rereading through your post. I have to disagree with your tone and though I am sorry for my mistake, I don't see it as bigotry. A big difference.
America and Iran are two different countries. I don't see many Iranians on the street protesting what the President has said. In America the opposite is true. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
America and Iran are two different countries. I don't see many Iranians on the street protesting what the President has said. In America the opposite is true. |
That's because in America they don't shoot you in the head for protesting what the President had said (yet)! I highly doubt you would be out protesting knowing you would be tortured and killed for it. Actually, not highly doubt, I know. |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| laogaiguk wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
America and Iran are two different countries. I don't see many Iranians on the street protesting what the President has said. In America the opposite is true. |
That's because in America they don't shoot you in the head for protesting what the President had said (yet)! I highly doubt you would be out protesting knowing you would be tortured and killed for it. Actually, not highly doubt, I know. |
I understand what you are saying, but you have to speak out against such evil.
Some of the greatest men were those who spoke out in truth when it meant they might die for saying what they did.
However, there are some who are speaking out. The Iranian church is growing rapidly and they are in disagreement with the President. So there is a segment of Iranian society that is against the government. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:11 am Post subject: Re: Zionists and the holocaust |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
This topic has come up in another thread, and seems to have devolved into a bunch of wackjob links being tossed around to the general merriment of all concerned. I thought this topic deserves an honest airing, so I decided to start my own thread.
First off, I recommend that anyone interested in the subject get ahold of Eichmann In Jerusalem, by Hannah Arendt. The book is based on her reportage of the trial, originally published in The New Yorker magazine. Zionist complicity is not the main focus of her discussion, but it does get a fair bit of coverage, especially in regards to the fate of Hungarian Jews(see below). |
Thanks for the info. OTO ... H ... looks like a good read 
Say, wasn't EICHMANN himself Jewish?
It's widely believed he was.
Hilter was likely 1/4 Jewish.
Friday, 8 February, 2002, 06:16 GMT
Britain Forged Hitler passport
The passport was among wartime "subversion plans"
A passport for Adolf Hitler made by British intelligence officers is among secret UK government documents made public for the first time.
"Politics making for strange bedfellows"
"Truth being stranger than fiction"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1808286.stm |
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