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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: Why is Hezbollah on the Terrorism List? |
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And Who Isn't But Should Be?
During the Israeli/Lebanon war last summer, I noticed that a lot of people seemed to lump Hezbollah with Al Qaeda, not understanding that they both had very different goals and functions. There was also a lot of controversy as to why Hezbollah had suddenly been classed as a terrorist organisation in recent years, by several Anglo-Saxon nations, that was not explored in much of the mainstream press.
This article is interesting in that it explores Hezbollah's alleged role in the 1983 attack on US soldiers.
http://www.counterpunch.org/lamb04062007.html
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this kind of Bush administration offer, many view Hezbollah's spot on the 'T list' as a badge of honor . Yet, respect for international law would suggest that the Bush Administration ought to show their 'evidence' or remove Hezbollah from the list.
When pressed in early April, 2007 by a former House Judiciary Committee staffer, one lawyer in the State Department Office of the General Counsel commented, "Its not that Hezbollah is terrorist per say, actually we know they are pretty clean-they are ok- but you must realize that they do associate with shady characters to their East, if you know what I mean."
Hezbollah's view of the April 17, 1983 Embassy bombing is different from some militia operating during this period. Hezbollah has consistently opposed attacks on foreign civilians. It was one of the first to condemn the 9/11 operation as well as the 1997 attack at the Temple of Hatshepsut at Luxor, Egypt which killed 58 civilians as "bloody and terrible, calling them crimes against Islam. Hezbollah also condemned the Cairo attacks on the Greek tourists, and the Algerian killing of 7 trappist monks in Algerian by claimed Islamists.
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It might be quite interesting to some, and it will most certainly give Jinju new reason to squawk... |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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Hezbollah is on the list for obvious reasons that many of us have articulated here since at least as early as last summer's Israeli-Hezbollah War -- the one Hezbollah and its Iranian and Syrian sponsors intentionally provoked, remember?
As for who ought to be on the list but is not on the list, do not know.
Another thing: the Cuban govt should have been taken off the list of state-sponsors long ago. |
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ChuckECheese
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Because they are terrorists. |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Why is Hezbollah on the Terrorism List? |
They're terrorists because they do terrorist things like blowing up kids on school buses. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Just because they may not be as dangerous or nefarious as Al Qaeda does not clear Hezbollah of the term terrorist.
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| Hezbollah has consistently opposed attacks on foreign civilians |
In word, perhaps, but not in deed. In last year's summer war Hezbollah launched Iranian-supplied rockets into Israeli civilian areas. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| twg wrote: |
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| Why is Hezbollah on the Terrorism List? |
They're terrorists because they do terrorist things like blowing up kids on school buses. |
maybe if they blow up one of bb's kids she will change her tune.
PEOPLE THAT GO ON BUSES WITH BOMBS STRAPPED TO THEM ARE TERRORISTS. THATS WHY HEZBOLLAH ARE ON THE TERRORISM LIST. |
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madcap
Joined: 04 Dec 2006
Location: Gangneung, Korea
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:27 am Post subject: |
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Hezbolla is listed as a terrorist group to justify Israeli agression against them.
They exist as a suppliment to inadequate government forces in the area. There is a reason that local people love them. Because they take a lot of that money that Iran and Syria give them and they use it to build hospitals and schools for a population living in third world conditions. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| madcap wrote: |
Hezbolla is listed as a terrorist group to justify Israeli agression against them.
They exist as a suppliment to inadequate government forces in the area. There is a reason that local people love them. Because they take a lot of that money that Iran and Syria give them and they use it to build hospitals and schools for a population living in third world conditions. |
Thats not the issue. They KILL, but more importantly THEY TARGET CIVILLIANS. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| madcap wrote: |
Hezbolla is listed as a terrorist group to justify Israeli agression against them.
They exist as a suppliment to inadequate government forces in the area. There is a reason that local people love them. Because they take a lot of that money that Iran and Syria give them and they use it to build hospitals and schools for a population living in third world conditions. |
Hizzbollah blew up a Jewish community center , not in Israel but in Argentina.
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he Bombing of the Jewish Community Center in Argentina (1994) �
an Example of the Modus Operandi of Hezbollah�s Overseas Terrorist Apparatus
�A thousand suicide commandos are ready to strike Israel all over the world�(Hassan Nasrallah, al-Watan al-Arabi, June 17, 1994, a month before the bombing of the AMIA building)
Background
On July 18, 1994, 09:53 hours, a huge explosion occurred in the building of the Argentine Jewish community center, AMIA, on Pasteur Street in Buenos Aires.
As a result, 85 people who were in the building or its vicinity were killed, and another 240 people were wounded.
A large part of the building collapsed and adjacent buildings were severely damaged. Over 100 people were in the building at the time of the attack, including workers renovating the building. The work at the center started at 08:00 hours each day.
The explosion created a crater on the road opposite the |
http://www.intelligence.org.il/eng/bu/hizbullah/pb/app5.htm
Hizzbollah is a fascist hate group period... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I knew Joo would bring up the Argentina incident. Yesss.
I used to defend Hizballah for the reasons Big Bird gave above but in the past year:
1. It stupidly provoked Israel and lebanese have paid the price.
2. It is a major road block to stablity in Lebanon and making peace there very insecure.
3. It keeps its weapons. |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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Big Bird:
Please stick to things you understand, like talking to fuzzy little grouchy creatures in alley trash cans. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| madcap wrote: |
Hezbolla is listed as a terrorist group to justify Israeli agression against them.
They exist as a suppliment to inadequate government forces in the area. There is a reason that local people love them. Because they take a lot of that money that Iran and Syria give them and they use it to build hospitals and schools for a population living in third world conditions. |
Thats not the issue. They KILL, but more importantly THEY TARGET CIVILLIANS. |
Big Bird did not say Hamas. Big Bird said Hezbollah. Hezbollah certainly does not target civilians more than Israel. Hezbollah is not in the West Bank and Gaza, and hasn't had suicide bombers on buses. They have mainly targeted Israeli soldiers. So it is a whole ball of wax.
Hezbollah was justified in resisting the Israeli occupation and attacking Israel prior to the year 2000. Hezbollah was targeting Israeli soldiers. They were viewed as a reistance by the majority of Lebanese until 2006.
After that, that is when Hezbollah's behaviour was not viewed so much as that of a resistance organization of many Lebanese. It was an aggressor when it took Israeli soldiers, but in that fight Israel, it could be argued, targeted far more Lebanese. I don't think that Hezbollah, historically, is worse than Israel in terms of harm to civilians. Simply put, Hezbollah is on the list, because it opposes the U.S.'s ally- Israel, and it is not making matters worse by also being opposed to the U.S.'s Sunni allies in Lebanon and the Gulf. It is also connected to Iran.
I had no problem with Hezbollah saying they were fighting occupation, but when their ally, Syria, refused to officially cede the Sheba'a Farms to the Lebanese, and Hezbollah claimed to continue fighting because Sheba'a was occupied Lebanese territory, it is clear that Hezbollah has a sectarian agenda. Of course, Hezbollah is not like Al Qaeda.
They do not seek to kill Sunnis like Al Qaeda seeks to kill Shiites, so they are much better than Al Qaeda, and Syria and Israel could end this by dealing Shebaa. Hezbollah is just a symptom of the problems between Israel and Syria instead of them negotiating or fighting directly. That is what is happening. I am not concerned with this term terrorist, but how to stop the confrontation from both sides and to end this conflict. Hezbollah may be a state within a state, but it in terms of its harm to civilians when compared to Israel, it is certainly not worse. Anyway, these arguments don't contribute except to Byzantine discussions. Hezbollah is on the list because it is the enemy of Israel, and the U.S. is staunchly pro-Israeli. That's the reason. It is not really about morality. Some people just believe that. It is who you consider to be a friend versus foe.
Last edited by Adventurer on Sun Apr 08, 2007 7:49 am; edited 2 times in total |
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yesman
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
| madcap wrote: |
Hezbolla is listed as a terrorist group to justify Israeli agression against them.
They exist as a suppliment to inadequate government forces in the area. There is a reason that local people love them. Because they take a lot of that money that Iran and Syria give them and they use it to build hospitals and schools for a population living in third world conditions. |
Thats not the issue. They KILL, but more importantly THEY TARGET CIVILLIANS. |
Yeah, this term "terrorist" is such a loaded catch phrase. It implies a slew of vague presuppositions, that, when looked at under closer scrutiny are usually double standards meant to categorically demonize a person or group not in your ideological camp.
American and Israeli military don't have to strap bombs to themselves; we have far more devestating (precision) means to invoke terror. The whole "shock and awe" campaign wasn't called this because it was an awesome fireworks show for the Iraqi people. It was meant to break the will of the population and lessen resistance (a few people perished, but "we don't do body counts").
So many civilians die in the process of these "precision" strikes, but it's all openly accepted as "collateral damage". It's a known consequence, but how does that change the bloody result, or somehow make it any different? Well, whatever you call it, Israel's bombing campain destroyed buildings, displaced families, and ended civilian lives in Lebenon on a scale far greater than any Hezbollah rockets pointed in the opposite direction.
Flip the "terrorist" accusation around. How would you respond if your country was invaded, your fellow citizens detained and tortured, your resources pillaged, your living conditions plunge, and all the while permanent military bases were being constructed? Would you resist, you terrorist? Of course you would, and you'd use any effective means available. After all, you don't have an Apache in your backyard.
America and Israel are the biggest suppressors in the region, using brutal force, killing plenty, and creating miserable living conditions. Is it terror? No, it's Democracy.
I'm with you, Big_Bird. Let's create a new terror list based on actual statistics. Oh yeah, you might like this interview from the 2006 Lebenon war, if you haven't seen it yet. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
Hezbollah certainly does not target civilians more than Israel...They have mainly targeted Israeli soldiers...Hezbollah was justified in resisting the Israeli occupation and attacking Israel prior to the year 2000. Hezbollah was targeting Israeli soldiers. They were viewed as a reistance by the majority of Lebanese until 2006...
I don't think that Hezbollah, historically, is worse than Israel in terms of harm to civilians. Simply put, Hezbollah is on the list, because it opposes the U.S.'s ally- Israel, and it is not making matters worse by also being opposed to the U.S.'s Sunni allies in Lebanon and the Gulf. It is also connected to Iran. |
Way too preoccupied with "morality" and value-laden comparisons against Israel, which, simply stated, will get no fair hearing here (or nearly anywhere else, for that matter).
Attacks on the U.S. embassy and the Marine barracks in 1983 were not attacks on civilians, true. But they were attacks against unarmed fighting men, off any battlefield and at rest. Hezbollah has certainly played its part in making this fight an unconventional one -- including their kidnapping, torturing, and excuting by hanging LtCol. Higgins.
Good to see you recognize Hezbollah's Iranian connections, including, according to Wikipedia, its television station's supporting Tehran's Holocaust-denial position.
But this still does not support our claim that Hezbollah deliberately targets civilians, does it? I wonder if you were paying attn to their strategy in the 2006 Israeli-Hezbollah War, Adventurer. Or whether you understand how Hezbollah defines its mission and justifies its targetting civilians...
| Wikipedia wrote: |
Nasrallah has stated that "Israel is an illegal usurper entity, which is based on falsehood, massacres, and illusions," and considers that the elimination of Israel will bring peace in the Middle East: "There is no solution to the conflict in this region except with the disappearance of Israel..."
Nasrallah stated that "in occupied Palestine there is no difference between a soldier and a civilian, for they are all invaders, occupiers and usurpers of the land."
In addition, Hezbollah's television station Al-Manar airs programming designed to inspire suicide attacks in Gaza, the West Bank and Iraq. |
People love to demonstrate their "humanity" and critical-thinking capabilities by "bravely going beyond the official story" and seeing Israel and entities like Hezbollah "for what they really are." This usually entails bitterly denouncing Israel and its American supporters while at the same time adopting the exact same apologetic posture towards Hezbollah, Tehran, and others that they accuse of of having vis-a-vis Israel and America (and, of course, it unfolds differently under changing circumstances, like your siding against Tehran in its most recent adventure).
I only wish they would drop the moralistic tone and simply admit that they have chosen to side against Israel and with Hezbollah in this affair. In any case, Adventurer, I do not find your "Hezbollah does not target civilians any more than Israel" reassuring in the least -- especially knowing that Israeli-caused civilian deaths are collateral while Hezbollah's are intentional.
Last edited by Gopher on Sun Apr 08, 2007 11:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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yesman
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2007 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| I only wish they would drop the moralistic tone and simply admit that they have chosen to side against Israel and with Hezbollah in this affair. In any case, Adventurer, I do not find your "Hezbollah does not target civilians any more than Israel" reassuring in the least -- especially knowing that Israeli-caused civilian deaths are collateral while Hezbollah's are intentional. |
Moralistic tone? There's a big difference between pointing out inconsistancies and picking a side. Wasn't the topic the question of why Hezbollah was on that list?
You seem eager to look at Hezbollah's transgressions (and rightly so), but do not cast the same scrutiny or standards upon Israel's role (taking sides?). In fact, you dismiss it casually.
BOTH ISRAEL AND HEZBOLLAH WERE CONDEMNED BY HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH GROUPS.
The Lebanese civilian death toll from the 2006 conflict was 26 times higher than that of the Israelis. But I'm sure those civilians will rest in their graves peacefully knowing that it was only collateral. |
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