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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: Polygamists in western Canada |
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A polygamist community in Bountiful, B.C., is again at the centre of a political and legal controversy as the province is looking at filing criminal charges.
Bountiful is home to a fundamentalist Mormon sect that continues to practise polygamy, which is illegal in Canada.
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Jancis Andrews, one of the women who filed the human rights complaint three years ago, alleges the province had a policy not to prosecute men in Bountiful for polygamy or the sexual exploitation of young girls.
"I wanted women's rights upheld," Andrews told CBC News. "And I don't think any civilized country should have concubines and harems among its populace, which of course is what Bountiful is doing."
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From CBC |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Women's rights and human rights means that adult women and men should be able to choose any type of voluntary, peaceful living arrangement they desire, including polygamy.
What happened to that peaceful, tolerant Canada we always hear about?
Yes, Canada should do something about polygamy: they should decriminalize it and keep their hands off peaceful citizens who choose to live an alternative lifestyle. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Women's rights and human rights means that adult women and men should be able to choose any type of voluntary, peaceful living arrangement they desire, including polygamy.
Yes, Canada should do something about polygamy: they should decriminalize it and keep their hands off peaceful citizens who choose to live an alternative lifestyle. |
I agree. We may not like it, but adults should be able to enter any living arrangements they want. Many people are married but have another partner, have children with that partner. It's probably better under law to guarantee property rights (which is the true intent of marriage) for the children of such partners. The courts will end up doing this anyway.
It's unfortunate most of these religious (oh the god believers and the crimes they commit) types really just use it as excuse to get their freak on with children and give it a bad name.
| Quote: |
| What happened to that peaceful, tolerant Canada we always hear about? |
Hey one thing at a time. First we did away with the abortion law, and then we legalized toplessness, and then drugs, and then gay marriage...
Frankly, the system works like this:
The courts strike down a law.
The governments does a poll and discovers Canadians don't really care either way. You pass a new law against, you'll piss off 50% of the voters. You pass a new law for, you'll piss off 50% of the voters.
The government either does nothing ("we're in consultation with the courts to try and figure out a new law") or passes a law that legalizes it but doesn't compel anyone. (Homosexuals can marry but no church has to marry such and would face no legal sanctions for refusing.) |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| Yes, Canada should do something about polygamy: they should decriminalize it and keep their hands off peaceful citizens who choose to live an alternative lifestyle. |
Do you mean decriminalize as opposed to legalize? Because if you were to legalize polygamy outright, it would pretty much guarantee that Canada would become a destination of choice for polygamous economic migrants the world over. And they in turn would raise their kids to accept and practice polygamy. So, you'd have generation after generation of polygamous communites in Canada, plus of course more polygamists coming in every year. After a while, we might not be calling it an alternative lifestyle anymore.
France in the 1980s tried an unofficial "blind eye" approach to polygamy. Apprently, the results were less than impressive in terms of promoting social development...
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During the 1980s, the French government quietly permitted immigrant men to bring multiple wives into the country, to the point where an estimated 200,000 families in Paris are now polygamous. Any suspicion that official concern over headscarves was motivated by an impulse toward gender equality is belied by the easy adoption of a permissive policy on polygamy, despite the burdens this practice imposes on women and the warnings issued by women from the relevant cultures.1 On this issue, no politically effective opposition galvanized. But once reporters finally got around to interviewing the wives, they discovered what the government could have learned years earlier: that the women affected by polygamy regarded it as an inescapable and barely tolerable institution in their African countries of origin, and an unbearable imposition in the French context. Overcrowded apartments and the lack of each wife's private space lead to immense hostility, resentment, even violence both among the wives and against each other's children.
In part because of the strain on the welfare state caused by families with 20-30 members, the French government has recently decided to recognize only one wife and consider all the other marriages annulled. But what will happen to all the other wives and children? Having neglected women's view on polygamy for so long, the government now seems to be abdicating its responsibility for the vulnerability that women and children incurred because of its rash policy.
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http://www.bostonreview.net/BR22.5/okin.html |
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fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Yes, Canada should do something about polygamy: they should decriminalize it and keep their hands off peaceful citizens who choose to live an alternative lifestyle. |
Do you mean decriminalize as opposed to legalize? Because if you were to legalize polygamy outright, it would pretty much guarantee that Canada would become a destination of choice for polygamous economic migrants the world over. And they in turn would raise their kids to accept and practice polygamy. So, you'd have generation after generation of polygamous communites in Canada, plus of course more polygamists coming in every year. After a while, we might not be calling it an alternative lifestyle anymore.
France in the 1980s tried an unofficial "blind eye" approach to polygamy. Apprently, the results were less than impressive in terms of promoting social development...
| Quote: |
During the 1980s, the French government quietly permitted immigrant men to bring multiple wives into the country, to the point where an estimated 200,000 families in Paris are now polygamous. Any suspicion that official concern over headscarves was motivated by an impulse toward gender equality is belied by the easy adoption of a permissive policy on polygamy, despite the burdens this practice imposes on women and the warnings issued by women from the relevant cultures.1 On this issue, no politically effective opposition galvanized. But once reporters finally got around to interviewing the wives, they discovered what the government could have learned years earlier: that the women affected by polygamy regarded it as an inescapable and barely tolerable institution in their African countries of origin, and an unbearable imposition in the French context. Overcrowded apartments and the lack of each wife's private space lead to immense hostility, resentment, even violence both among the wives and against each other's children.
In part because of the strain on the welfare state caused by families with 20-30 members, the French government has recently decided to recognize only one wife and consider all the other marriages annulled. But what will happen to all the other wives and children? Having neglected women's view on polygamy for so long, the government now seems to be abdicating its responsibility for the vulnerability that women and children incurred because of its rash policy.
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http://www.bostonreview.net/BR22.5/okin.html |
There already enough deadbeat dads, could you imagine a Canada where a dad can leave 20 wives? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Do you mean decriminalize as opposed to legalize? Because if you were to legalize polygamy outright, it would pretty much guarantee that Canada would become a destination of choice for polygamous economic migrants the world over. |
That's a slippery slope argument. Last time I checked, we still had immigration laws. "I want to have 20 wives" is not a valid reason for immigration. Canada doesn't have an open border.
People will live in non sanctioned polygamous relationships regardless. You don't need state approval to marry one woman, move in another under your roof or another roof, and have kids with her. How many men, for non religious reasons, are married with kids, have a kid with their mistress, and set her up? It happens. The kids by the second mate still have rights to welfare etc.
The state cannot prevent women from entering such relationships of their own choosing. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| fiveeagles wrote: |
There already enough deadbeat dads, could you imagine a Canada where a dad can leave 20 wives? |
Yeah, many like that great divorced (a sin) Christian Meegook. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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Mormons constitute a powerful Freemasonic kult 
They're highly committed to selective breeding & eugenics.
re: polygamy ... cool!  |
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ajgeddes
Joined: 28 Apr 2004
Location: Yongsan
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I think the main problem with polygamy is not so much the ideology and practice of it, but rather the legal status granted by the government. For example, can a man now claim free dental care for 17 wives and all their children? Things like that I think is where it gets difficult and where the real problems arise. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| igotthisguitar wrote: |
Mormons constitute a powerful Freemasonic kult
They're highly committed to selective breeding & eugenics.
re: polygamy ... cool! |
The sky in your world is what color exactly? Blue because Dow dumps mind control chemicals into the sky and they've turned it blue? All our history books and art that have depicted the sky as blue are lies The Conspiracy has been feeding us since 1907? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ajgeddes wrote: |
| For example, can a man now claim free dental care for 17 wives and all their children? Things like that I think is where it gets difficult and where the real problems arise. |
Where do adults get free dental care? I know some provinces have free dental care for children, but a child is a child. How many guys knock up multiple women and marry none of them? You get free dental care whether you know who your daddy is or not.
Last time I checked our birthrate was declining and we'd like more children.
Private insurance companies certainly provide dental care as part of their benefits. But a private insurance company is not obligated to re-write its policies to include additional wives. This is, however, why I'm suggesting if the courts ever did strike down the law (like they did with gay marriage) that the government would then pass legislation where insurance companies are not held as discriminatory if they limit benefits in certain ways. Insurance companies are not charities. This is similar to the gay marriage act that removed churches from facing human rights violations if they refuse to marry homosexuals.
And are polygamous communities in the Western tradition huge welfare holes? I thought they were mostly agricultural and rather self sustaining. Wives and children provide labor. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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On the other hand wrote:
Do you mean decriminalize as opposed to legalize? Because if you were to legalize polygamy outright, it would pretty much guarantee that Canada would become a destination of choice for polygamous economic migrants the world over.
That's a slippery slope argument. Last time I checked, we still had immigration laws. "I want to have 20 wives" is not a valid reason for immigration. Canada doesn't have an open border.
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It wouldn't be a question of a man immigrating to Canada in order to have multiple wives. The man would have multiple wives in his native country. He would then immigrate to Canada, and try to bring his wives with him. If the Canadian government tried to tell him he couldn't, he would hire a lawyer who would argue that the government was discriminating against him, because Canadian law doesn't prohibit polygamy. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| And are polygamous communities in the Western tradition huge welfare holes? |
From the LA Times:
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According to law enforcement officials and others familiar with how plural marriage operates, the problems usually associated with polygamy include:
High levels of incest, child abuse and wife battering. But the crimes are rarely reported because of the secrecy surrounding polygamous communities, law enforcement officials say.
Widespread reliance on welfare. In the tiny town of Hildale, for example, along the Utah-Arizona border, as many as 50% of the residents are on public assistance, according to state and federal records. The fraud occurs when plural wives claim they don't know the whereabouts of their children's father.
Unusual levels of child poverty. For example, across the street from Hildale in Colorado City, Ariz., every school-age child in town was living below the poverty level, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates from 1997, the most current available.
Wide-ranging tax fraud. Polygamists often underestimate their income or, as in Green's case, don't file returns at all.
Limited educational opportunities. Last year the prophet of the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints Church, a group excommunicated more than a century ago for practicing polygamy, ordered the town's children to stop attending public school, resulting in the closure of the local elementary school.
Overtaxed public services. Medicaid pays for more than one-third of the babies born in Utah, and plural wives account for a disproportionate share of those births, child welfare advocates say.
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http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy69.html |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
It wouldn't be a question of a man immigrating to Canada in order to have multiple wives. The man would have multiple wives in his native country. He would then immigrate to Canada, and try to bring his wives with him. |
Again, we just don't let anyone into the country. A person has to be able to demonstrate he can take care of his dependents for (I think) at least a decade. If a dependent applies for social services, the sponsor is sent the bill. I really can't see Immigration Canada thinking a guy with multiple wives back in his native land is a good risk.
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| If the Canadian government tried to tell him he couldn't, he would hire a lawyer who would argue that the government was discriminating against him, because Canadian law doesn't prohibit polygamy. |
Again more slippery slope argumentation. "If this, then maybe this will happen." |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2007 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| How anyone can seriously argue FOR polygamy is beyond me. yet another example of the moral swamp the left on this board represent. |
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