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So you don't believe in evolution?
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What does the fossil record show?
Dinosaurs once walked the earth alongside people!
17%
 17%  [ 13 ]
God planted the fossils to test our faith!
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
There were multiple successive creations before the current one.
6%
 6%  [ 5 ]
Those fossils are a giant hoax!
2%
 2%  [ 2 ]
I don't know but evolution ain't the answer anyway!
10%
 10%  [ 8 ]
[Insert personal wacko theory here]
4%
 4%  [ 3 ]
It proves evolution of course!
54%
 54%  [ 40 ]
Total Votes : 74

Author Message
Privateer



Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject: So you don't believe in evolution? Reply with quote

I posted this question in another thread but no-one responded, so here it is again.

If you don't accept evolution, how do you explain the fossil record?

There's a lot of interesting debate in some of the threads on evolution on stuff like how evolution works, how to explain gaps in the fossil record, mutation, biogenesis, and so on, but I'd just like to step back and ask something more basic!

It's all very well to pick holes in the theory of evolution but you've got to have an alternative and that alternative has got to take account of the fossil record.

For convenience, I've provided some possible answers in a poll. You can probably tell I don't take the other side seriously but honestly, if you can come up with another explanation that sounds reasonable, I'd love to hear it.

For me, the most logical one (although not the simplest - look out for Occam's razor) is that God created several different sets of dinosaurs, which got destroyed somehow, and then mammals. Not that I believe it for a second.
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seoulunitarian



Joined: 06 Jul 2004

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:49 pm    Post subject: re: Reply with quote

I do accept evolution, but I do not opt that the fossil record proves evolution. I chose the option that there have been multiple "creations" and extinctions.

Peace
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mnhnhyouh



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I cant vote for any options. I think evolution is the best explanation we have for all the current observations, but it cannot be proved.

While those who profess creationism use that to attack sience in general and evolution in particular, this is its greatest strength.

I believe that if you dont understand that, you dont understand science.

h
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Big_Bird



Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mnhnhyouh wrote:
I cant vote for any options. I think evolution is the best explanation we have for all the current observations, but it cannot be proved.

While those who profess creationism use that to attack sience in general and evolution in particular, this is its greatest strength.

I believe that if you dont understand that, you dont understand science.

h


Yes, I felt that the last option (which I reluctantly chose) was flawed. Perhaps the OP could rephrase that option better.
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Manner of Speaking



Joined: 09 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer your question more broadly, I think the fossil record demonstrates a number of things. First of all, it demonstrates that the history of life is far, far older than accounted for in the creation myths of many of the world's major religions. So even if you discount evolution as the mechanism for the origin of species, the fossil record clearly shows that the creation myths of the world's major religions do not correctly explain the origin and history of life on Earth.

Second, principles of ecosystem dynamics - and even animal behavior - which can be observed in present-day ecosystems and species can also be observed or inferred to have operated in ancient ecosystems and now-extinct species.

Third, there are numerous examples of species change through natural selection which can be observed in the fossil record, but to a certain extent this is superfluous to the debate as to whether or not species evolve. This is because evolution HAS been observed in action by scientists in present-day species, even in Homo sapiens, to cite the recent thread I started regarding milk digestion in East African peoples.


Last edited by Manner of Speaking on Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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mnhnhyouh



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:
Homo Sapiens


Sorry, the pedant in me is rearing its ugly head again. The species name, sapiens, (not the Genus name Homo) should all be spelled in lowercase.

However I must applaud your use of italics, very few do this. *puts up hand sheepishly*

h
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khyber



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and for the record, we are now "homo sapien sapien"

Anyways, the fossil records seems to indicate evolution but I really can't be convinced that it's anything near an airtight case.
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Bondrock



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: re: Reply with quote

seoulunitarian wrote:
I do accept evolution, but I do not opt that the fossil record proves evolution. I chose the option that there have been multiple "creations" and extinctions.

Peace


my question is, where are the animals that are near-human intelligence... nothwithstanding some of the posters on this board...

...seriously, evolution does have some holes... but that does not prove creationism by any stretch.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:
evolution HAS been observed in action by scientists in present-day species, even in Homo sapiens, to cite the recent thread I started regarding milk digestion in East African peoples.


That is a case of simply utilising formerly unused DNA. junk DNA if you will. It was always there, but just not needed up til that point in time.

mutation is a different thing entirely...
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:01 am    Post subject: Re: re: Reply with quote

Bondrock wrote:
but that does not prove creationism by any stretch.


Why can't evolutionists acknowledge that an extraordinary level of scientific information is casually revealed in the bible , written millenia before scientists discovered them? or that many scientists of major breakthroughs were devout christians who openly professed that their inspitration was from the bible? i'm talking stuff like the following:
http://forerunner.com/forerunner/X0027_Scientific.html
http://www.genesisfiles.com/Guest_Articles/ICR_imp-219.htm
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laogaiguk



Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:06 am    Post subject: Re: re: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:
Bondrock wrote:
but that does not prove creationism by any stretch.


Why can't evolutionists acknowledge that an extraordinary level of scientific information is casually revealed in the bible , written millenia before scientists discovered them? or that many scientists of major breakthroughs were devout christians who openly professed that their inspitration was from the bible? i'm talking stuff like the following:
http://forerunner.com/forerunner/X0027_Scientific.html
http://www.genesisfiles.com/Guest_Articles/ICR_imp-219.htm


Every part of that is 100% wrong. But trying to explain it to someone who would rather attack posters and call an entire country's people ignorant because they showed that there is no time difference between Japan and Korea which you had thought was was true would probably be pointless.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: re: Reply with quote

laogaiguk wrote:

Every part of that is 100% wrong.


Are you really blind, or just in denial...

lets see.

Ecclesiastes 1:6, : "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits."

Psalm 8:8 .."whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas."

-after reading this outrageously new idea in the bible, Scientist Matthew maury (1841-1861) went on to plot wind circuits and chart ocean currents- a concept unheard of previously. yet there it is, written thousands of years ago... many other similar examples. Any explanation LGGk?
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mnhnhyouh



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Location: The Middle Kingdom

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:22 am    Post subject: Re: re: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:

Ecclesiastes 1:6, : "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits."


Hmmm, hugely predictive and detailed explanation of the complexity of weather there huh?

All of modern meteorology, and all that will be discovered by that field, summed up in one pithy sentence.

Now I see why the bible is so powerful.

So Junior, can you use that to tell us what meteorology will discover over the next 5 years?

How about the longevity of the next El-nino event?

h
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: re: Reply with quote

mnhnhyouh wrote:
Junior wrote:

Ecclesiastes 1:6, : "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits."


Hmmm, hugely predictive and detailed explanation of the complexity of weather there huh?


certainly, for something written in 250BC.

Quote:
How about the longevity of the next El-nino event?


Worse and worse I'm afraid...

*There has been a large fall in the levels of solar radiation reaching the earths surface, since the 1950's. A staggering 22% drop in the middle east: 10% over the USA, nearly 30% in parts of the former Soviet Union, and even by 16% in parts of the British Isles.

Revelation 8:12-13 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

*Even the most pessimistic forecasts of global warming may now have to be drastically revised upwards. That means a temperature rise of 10 degrees Celsius by 2100 could be on the cards, giving the UK a climate like that of North Africa, and rendering many parts of the world uninhabitable.

Revelation 16:8,9 �And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.�

Tsunamis, hurricanes.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Increasing aridification. The drying up of grasslands...

Revelation 8:6-7 ..and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


and so on..
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Bondrock



Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^

PostPosted: Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: re: Reply with quote

Junior wrote:
mnhnhyouh wrote:
Junior wrote:

Ecclesiastes 1:6, : "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirleth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits."


Hmmm, hugely predictive and detailed explanation of the complexity of weather there huh?


certainly, for something written in 250BC.

Quote:
How about the longevity of the next El-nino event?


Worse and worse I'm afraid...

*There has been a large fall in the levels of solar radiation reaching the earths surface, since the 1950's. A staggering 22% drop in the middle east: 10% over the USA, nearly 30% in parts of the former Soviet Union, and even by 16% in parts of the British Isles.

Revelation 8:12-13 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

*Even the most pessimistic forecasts of global warming may now have to be drastically revised upwards. That means a temperature rise of 10 degrees Celsius by 2100 could be on the cards, giving the UK a climate like that of North Africa, and rendering many parts of the world uninhabitable.

Revelation 16:8,9 �And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.�

Tsunamis, hurricanes.

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Increasing aridification. The drying up of grasslands...

Revelation 8:6-7 ..and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


and so on..



what's next: Nostradamus....
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