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Nuclear energy - it's back, big time!
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SPINOZA



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 7:16 pm    Post subject: Nuclear energy - it's back, big time! Reply with quote

April 25, 2007: United States and Japan Sign Joint Nuclear Energy Action Plan to Promote Nuclear Energy Cooperation


"This Action Plan establishes the necessary framework to coordinate activities designed to promote the expansion of safe and secure nuclear power, in our respective countries, and globally. It also formalizes an agreement between our two nations � leading nuclear technology countries � to collaborate in four main areas, and provides the additional foundation for the U.S. and Japan to align efforts in support of global expansion of nuclear energy.

Four main areas outlined in the Action Plan are:

1. Cooperation of nuclear energy research and development under GNEP (Global Nuclear Energy Partnership);
2. Collaboration on policies and programs that support the construction of new nuclear power plants;
3. Establishment of a nuclear fuel supply assurance mechanism; and
4. Joint collaboration to support the safe and secure expansion of nuclear energy in interested countries while promoting non-proliferation, consistent with GNEP.


�By strengthening our joint cooperation in civil nuclear energy, the United States and Japan will also strengthen our strategic interests,� Secretary Bodman said. �This Action Plan is an historic agreement and provides the additional foundation for our two nations to align efforts to support the global expansion of nuclear energy, and ultimately a nuclear renaissance. Not only can nuclear energy serve as a cornerstone of sustainable economic development, but as a reliable, viable and emissions-free source of power, it offers enormous potential to help meet the world�s increasing demand for energy in a safe and proliferation-resistant manner.�

- United States Department of Energy Secretary, Samuel W. Bodman

Global Nuclear Energy Partnership (GNEP)
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SPINOZA



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul

PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Manner of Speaking wrote:
SPINOZA wrote:
Manner of Speaking wrote:
SPINOZA wrote:
Canada has the world's largest supplies of Uranium. One nuclear fuel pellet (of Uranium) about two centimetres long produces the same amount of electricity as one and a half tonnes of coal and no Co2.

Coal-fired electricity plants etc etc....


What a plonker. Laughing


Not a siiiiiiinggggle new plant ordered in North America since the 1970s. Enough said.


The nuclear industry continues to receive considerable federal support, unbeknownst to this particular hagwon muppet, it would appear.

Really? Enough said? The fact that 16% of the world's electricity is nuclear power - not worthy of discussion? 80% of French energy from nuclear - irrelevant, not interesting? The world average is 16%. The US has 21%. Plenty of room for more, apparently, according to the US Department of Energy Secretary, calling for a "nuclear renaissance". But never mind what he thinks, eh? He's just a mere Department of Energy Secretary. Never mind Bush's Global Nuclear Energy Partnership. Never mind the ITER, seeking to commercialize fusion power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITER .

But - much, much more importantly - what are Neil Armstrong's views here (the rapper, that is)?

Remember him?? Laughing Laughing

Manner of Speaking wrote:
Strangely enough, there is some kind of weird psychological thing that goes on with people who get interested in nuclear energy...like some kind of cult, or religion. They seem to get ''hooked" on it somehow...become convinced it can solve all the world's problems...major cognitive dissonance when it comes to radioactivity and cost issues.

If nuclear energy made economic sense, there'd be reactors everywhere.

Sad.


Stick to TEFL buddy. But do get a clue. Fossil fuel price increases and concern over greenhouse gas emissions renew the demand for nuclear power plants. That�s the point and it ought to be obvious.
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SPINOZA



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Article from November 2005 on investing in Uranium: http://www.moneyweek.com/file/7115/how-to-invest-in-uranium.html

James Lovelock, a founder of Greenpeace, has said: �Only nuclear power can halt global warming.�

Asia�s developing nations are going to build many more nuclear units, boosting demand for uranium
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pkang0202



Joined: 09 Mar 2007

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess I should start investing in Uranium.
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SPINOZA



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should've done it 7 years ago buddy. Prices have jumped almost 500%, from just $7 a pound in 2000 to well over $40 today.

Here's a good source from 2 years ago on investing in nuclear ("Thorium, a close cousin of uranium, is cleaner and safer than current nuclear fuel, and more of it can be extracted from the ground. In fact, according to the World Nuclear Association, the mineral has more potential to create electric power than any on Earth!")

http://www.investmentu.com/research/uraniumstocks.pdf
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm opposed to nuclear energy on the following grounds:

- The byproducts are just too dangerous. We have no way to contain them for the life of their potency.

- Chernobyl.

- Too expensive for many regions/countries.

IF they could isolate them within a bunker sort of contraption that would withstand any accident, then OK. If they can send the refuse off into the sun, then OK. Minus these advances, the slow poisoning of the environment is fairly likely. (I'm talking in terms of nuclear half-lifes...)
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SPINOZA



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:
I'm opposed to nuclear energy on the following grounds:

- The byproducts are just too dangerous. We have no way to contain them for the life of their potency.

- Chernobyl.

- Too expensive for many regions/countries.

IF they could isolate them within a bunker sort of contraption that would withstand any accident, then OK. If they can send the refuse off into the sun, then OK. Minus these advances, the slow poisoning of the environment is fairly likely. (I'm talking in terms of nuclear half-lifes...)


Those views are anachronistic.

Anyway, let's see what Sir Bernard Ingham, Secretary of Supporters of Nuclear Energy had to say earlier this month (INSTITUTE OF FUELLERS� LECTURE, 'ENERGY POLICY; THE STRUGGLE BETWEEN MYTH AND FACT'): http://www.sone.org.uk/images/stories/institute%20of%20fuellers.doc

Dangerous?


Quote:
Nuclear is safe. Not a SINGLE death from a radiation accident in 50 years of electricity generation in Britain. Beat that!


see also "Nuclear waste is correspondingly about a million times smaller than fossil fuel waste, and it is totally confined. In the USA and Sweden, spent fuel is simply stored away. Elsewhere, spent fuel is reprocessed to separate out the 3% of radioactive fission products and heavy elements to be vitrified (cast in glass) for safe and permanent storage. The remaining 97% � plutonium and uranium � is recovered and recycled into new fuel elements to produce more energy. The volume of nuclear waste produced is very small. A typical French family�s use of nuclear energy over a whole lifetime produces vitrified waste the size of a golf ball. Nuclear waste is to be deposited in deep geological storage sites; it does not enter the biosphere. Its impact on the ecosystems is minimal. Nuclear waste spontaneously decays over time while stable chemical waste, such as arsenic or mercury, lasts
forever"
from http://www.ecolo.org/base/baseen.htm

Three Mile Island and Chernobyl myths vs reality discussed in the same article under the sub-heading 'Nuclear Energy is Safe'.



Expensive?

Quote:
Nuclear has proved over half a century that it is reliable and economic � the cheapest generating option, taking account of environmental costs and the likely movement of fossil fuel prices, given the development of China, India, other parts of Asia, Russia and Latin America


See Ingham's comprehensive debunking of renewables' supposed role.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="SPINOZA"]
Quote:
Nuclear is safe. Not a SINGLE death from a radiation accident in 50 years of electricity generation in Britain. Beat that!


Oh, please. Go ask the victims of Chernobyl. The problem with nuclear is, when it's a problem, it's a SERIOUS, hundreds/thousands of years problem.

Quote:
see also [i]"Nuclear waste is correspondingly about a million times smaller than fossil fuel waste, and it is totally confined.


This is a flat mmm... distortion. There is not a single storage solution that lasts the life of radioactive material. Not one.

Quote:
See Ingham's comprehensive debunking of renewables' supposed role.


DEBUNKING? What? Renewables is a FRAUD? OK... I'm not interested in a propaganda war. If you can't fight on the truth, you've already lost.
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SPINOZA



Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOAH! Look at that reply time! You can't possibly have read those two articles very thoroughly. What kind of observer with pretentions of seriousness would reply before giving something a read, and a thorough one too?

You're a daft bugger, which is disappointing because I thought you might be one of the sensible ones who cares about the environment yet simultaneously seeks to maintain the industrial way of life and lift developing nations out of poverty - which are not possible in any other fashion other than nuclear. Obviously I was wrong. Your bad-tempered repetition of the Chernobyl point - addressed quite satisfactorily in one of my links - is suggestive of a man who simply can't be bothered. What are you - a renewables fan? My word, renewables buffoons truly are vermin. Green idiots, coal idiots, Republicans, Islamic states....all putrid wastes of life.

Your "Oh, please. Go ask the victims of Chernobyl. The problem with nuclear is, when it's a problem, it's a SERIOUS, hundreds/thousands of years problem" line of reasoning is like the man who's scared of flying despite the fact that the drive to the airport is statistically much more dangerous......(in best stupid person's accent)....."well, when a plane falls out of the sky, it's a serious problem....you're definitely dead! Whereas in a car you might survive". Laughing

The world is getting the message. From the Ingham article (terribly sorry you cannot be bothered reading it)......Currently, there are plans to raise the number of nuclear reactors globally by 60 per cent � 250 are under construction, planned or proposed to add to the existing 435, which produce 16-17% of the world�s electricity. The leading nuclear developers are China (68 new reactors), Russia (32), India (26), South Africa (25) and USA (24). Leave aside France (2) and Finland (1), Western Europe (as distinct from the former Soviet satellites) is stuck in the mud of neandearthal, so-called Green prejudice.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SPINOZA wrote:
You're a daft bugger, which is disappointing because I thought you might be one of the sensible ones who cares about the environment yet simultaneously seeks to maintain the industrial way of life and lift developing nations out of poverty - which are not possible in any other fashion other than nuclear. Obviously I was wrong.


No, you aren't wrong, but I don't like propaganda in any form. The article you cited/post you made had two quick claims that didn't even pass the giggle test.

FACT: There is no long-term storage solution for nuclear waste.

FACT: Using a word like "debunked" in this discussion is jumping right to propaganda tactics. It is not appropriate in the context.

If you're starting from there, we're wasting our time.

Are there benefits to nuclear energy? Of course. But I don't want to get into a propagandized discussion. I'd be more than interested in a factual, even-handed debate on the issue.
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:
I'm opposed to nuclear energy on the following grounds:

- The byproducts are just too dangerous. We have no way to contain them for the life of their potency.

- Chernobyl.

- Too expensive for many regions/countries.

IF they could isolate them within a bunker sort of contraption that would withstand any accident, then OK. If they can send the refuse off into the sun, then OK. Minus these advances, the slow poisoning of the environment is fairly likely. (I'm talking in terms of nuclear half-lifes...)


The byproducts can easily be stored safely in Yucca mountain, among other places. You can't really safely store the byproducts of burning fossil fuels, no? It all just goes into the atmosphere. Chernobyl was bletcherous Russian technology. We don't drive Ladas, we don't build crappy graphite moderated reactors. Vastly more people die mining coal and drilling for oil than die as a result of the western nuclear industry.
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mindmetoo"]
EFLtrainer wrote:
I'm opposed to nuclear energy on the following grounds:

- The byproducts are just too dangerous. We have no way to contain them for the life of their potency.

- Chernobyl.

- Too expensive for many regions/countries.

IF they could isolate them within a bunker sort of contraption that would withstand any accident, then OK. If they can send the refuse off into the sun, then OK. Minus these advances, the slow poisoning of the environment is fairly likely. (I'm talking in terms of nuclear half-lifes...)


Quote:
The byproducts can easily be stored safely in Yucca mountain,


This is incorrect. This is something I had direct involvement with back when it was just getting warm as an issue in California. The Yucca Mountain facility sits atop a massive aquifer and yet it is not designed to survive the life of the radioactive materials. This passes the buck onto future generations to solve the issue. If they even remember it is there. Guessing what the future will hold in 500 years is a tricky game.

Try again.

Quote:
You can't really safely store the byproducts of burning fossil fuels, no? It all just goes into the atmosphere.


Which is why I don't support the continued use of them for any large scale use.

Quote:
Chernobyl was bletcherous Russian technology.


Irrelevant: things break. Things get broken. Espionage happens. Etc. Always will.

Quote:
We don't drive Ladas, we don't build crappy graphite moderated reactors.


I'm not going to bother looking up the exact name for the logical error here... You know both this and the previous comment were not logical.

Quote:
Vastly more people die mining coal and drilling for oil than die as a result of the western nuclear industry.


So far. And, as far as we know. This is not a short-term issue. Short-term examples are irrelevant.
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chaz47



Joined: 11 Sep 2003

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok...

i won't weigh in on the right or wrong issue... or the logistics, i am a layman i admit and an uninformed one at that... but as far as efficient disposal goes, can't we build a giant rail gun and launch the waste out into another planet's orbit... or... possibly the sun...

i mean... if the waste is really of such a small volume than we could wrap it in iron and shoot it out there far far away... maybe... ?

what exactly happens to our mundane radioactive waste when it is bombarded with all the other radiation existing in the vaccuum of space?

is it possible that half life might be accelerated when the materials are exposed to other intense radiation sources? if so we could plant the junk on the moon or in the asteroid belt...

just a rambling thought, heavily sci-fi influenced...
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EFLtrainer



Joined: 04 May 2005

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chaz47 wrote:
ok...

i won't weigh in on the right or wrong issue... or the logistics, i am a layman i admit and an uninformed one at that... but as far as efficient disposal goes, can't we build a giant rail gun and launch the waste out into another planet's orbit... or... possibly the sun...

i mean... if the waste is really of such a small volume than we could wrap it in iron and shoot it out there far far away... maybe... ?

what exactly happens to our mundane radioactive waste when it is bombarded with all the other radiation existing in the vaccuum of space?

is it possible that half life might be accelerated when the materials are exposed to other intense radiation sources? if so we could plant the junk on the moon or in the asteroid belt...

just a rambling thought, heavily sci-fi influenced...


Haven't looked into that, but it's been discussed forever. I think it's an issue of cost. Anyone?
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mindmetoo



Joined: 02 Feb 2004

PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2007 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EFLtrainer wrote:

This is incorrect. This is something I had direct involvement with back when it was just getting warm as an issue in California. The Yucca Mountain facility sits atop a massive aquifer and yet it is not designed to survive the life of the radioactive materials. This passes the buck onto future generations to solve the issue. If they even remember it is there. Guessing what the future will hold in 500 years is a tricky game.


From wiki

Quote:
The proposed repository zone will cover 1150 acres (4.7 km�), be 1000 feet (300 m) below the surface of the mountain and 1000 feet (300 m) above the water table. The waste will be encased in a multilayer stainless steel and nickel alloy package covered by titanium drip shields that function also as rock shields.


You have different stats?

Quote:
Quote:
You can't really safely store the byproducts of burning fossil fuels, no? It all just goes into the atmosphere.


Which is why I don't support the continued use of them for any large scale use.


And what's your solution for energy?

Quote:
Quote:
Chernobyl was bletcherous Russian technology.


Irrelevant: things break. Things get broken. Espionage happens. Etc. Always will.


Oil refineries can be sabotaged. Chemical plants can be sabotaged or have accidents that can kill as many people as a melt down (think Bhopal). Every city has a thousand mini block buster bombs in the form of gas stations. Anything can have accidents or be blown up intentionally. Life is not without risks.


Quote:
Quote:
We don't drive Ladas, we don't build crappy graphite moderated reactors.


I'm not going to bother looking up the exact name for the logical error here... You know both this and the previous comment were not logical.


You have to look it up, oh wise master? Please, do look it up. Lay it on me.
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