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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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 Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:38 pm Post subject: Abu Graihb - Told ya so. |
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Ah, yes. The Great Neo-con Denial Machine. How many of you here on these forums so fervently argued it was just those two sad, little out of control soldiers doing all that bad stuff in Abu Graihb? How many of you toed the Neo-Con, Bush Cadre Partly Line?
Logically, it was impossible to conclude that the behavior of the soldiers there was isolated. See below for why. It was obvious, given the example set by the White House NOT to see that those involved were part of a culture of scumminess, not acting in isolation. It was, and is, simple psychology/sociology.
Further, below is a statement that puts Rumsfeld in a very serious legal position. Too bad he's no longer in office, because if Tacuba is right, the requirements for impeachment are right there. And you think this stopped with Rumsfeld? Please...
The first bolded section is obstruction of justice. The second is lying before Congress/in an investigation, which is what Clinton was impeached for. The third pretty much says take down the entire administration.
Found here, but originating here.
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Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba said that he felt mocked and shunned by top Pentagon officials, including then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, after filing an exhaustive report on the now-notorious Abu Ghraib abuse that sparked international outrage and led to an overhaul of the U.S. interrogation and detention policies. Taguba's report examining the 800th Military Police Brigade put in plain terms what had been documented in shocking photographs.
In interviews with New Yorker reporter Seymour M. Hersh, Taguba said that he was ordered to limit his investigation to low-ranking soldiers who were photographed with the detainees and the soldiers' unit, but that it was always his sense that the abuse was ordered at higher levels. Taguba was quoted as saying that he thinks top commanders in Iraq had extensive knowledge of the aggressive interrogation techniques that mirrored those used on high-value detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and that the military police "were literally being exploited by the military interrogators."
Taguba also said that Rumsfeld misled Congress when he testified in May 2004 about the abuse investigation, minimizing how much he knew about the incidents. Taguba said that he met with Rumsfeld and top aides the day before the testimony.
"I know that my peers in the Army will be mad at me for speaking out, but the fact is that we violated the laws of land warfare in Abu Ghraib," Taguba said, according to the article. "We violated the tenets of the Geneva Convention. We violated our own principles and we violated the core of our military values. The stress of combat is not an excuse, and I believe, even today, that those civilian and military leaders responsible should be held accountable."
"From what I knew, troops just don't take it upon themselves to initiate what they did without any form of knowledge of the higher-ups," Taguba told me. His orders were clear, however: he was to investigate only the military police at Abu Ghraib, and not those above them in the chain of command. "These M.P. troops were not that creative," he said. "Somebody was giving them guidance, but I was legally prevented from further investigation into higher authority. I was limited to a box." |
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yawarakaijin
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Abu has certainly fallen off the radar in terms of press coverage. I remember back in the day that there were all these "images that were too damning to be made public." Have these images ever been released? If so, where can one get a look at them? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Ah, yes. The Great Neo-con Denial Machine. How many of you here on these forums so fervently argued it was just those two sad, little out of control soldiers doing all that bad stuff in Abu Graihb? How many of you toed the Neo-Con, Bush Cadre Partly Line?
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A trip down memory lane...
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Posted Thursday, May 13, 2004, at 7:11 AM ET
Stop the presses! Chatterbox predicted May 11 that right-wing culture warriors would soon be blaming the Abu Ghraib prison scandal on the depravities of the 1960s. But various readers alerted Chatterbox that quite a few conservative commentators (most of them second-tier) have already come tantalizingly close to making just that point:
Blame moral relativism. Richard Land, head of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, to Rachell Zoll of the Associated Press: "This is not a breakdown in the system. This reflects a breakdown in society. These people's moral compass didn't work for some reason. My guess is because they've been infected with [moral] relativism."
Blame gays. "Could it be, as Rush Limbaugh mentioned in passing on a recent broadcast, that the perpetrators of the alleged crime are homosexuals?" asked Jeremy Reynalds of Men's News Daily. "Many people believe that homosexuals have a much greater potential than heterosexuals to be sexual predators. In addition, a sizeable number of sexually dysfunctional individuals (aka sexual predators) take pictures of their illicit acts."
Blame pornography. Rebecca Hagelin, a vice president of the Heritage Foundation, on Townhall.com, says we need to "take a cold, hard look at the degradation in our own country" if we want to understand Abu Ghraib: "[W]ith the non-judgmental, sex-crazed, anything-goes culture that we have become at home, it seems that America has set herself up for international humiliation. Our country permits Hollywood to put almost anything in a movie and still call it PG-13. We permit television and computers to bring all manner of filth into our homes. We permit school children to be taught that homosexuality" etc., etc.
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http://www.slate.com/id/2100437/ |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Have these images ever been released? If so, where can one get a look at them? |
I believe that those pictures are still tied up in the courts. I'm sure they'll be published as soon as the Supreme Court rules that they can be. If indeed that's what the court rules. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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I am sorry the US was caught doing it.
The US ought not have done it cause of the political problems it causes for the US.
I am not sorry that insurgents suffered what they did.
It is not like they wouldn't do worse were they to win. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
I am sorry the US was caught doing it.
The US ought not have done it cause of the political problems it causes for the US.
I am not sorry that insurgents suffered what they did.
It is not like they wouldn't do worse were they to win. |
I'll take this as a, "It is OK for our leaders to set the tone and the example that torture is OK, lie about it and cast a few apples at the bottom of the pail into the trash heap to take the heat off of themselves." |
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Yu_Bum_suk
Joined: 25 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| yawarakaijin wrote: |
| Abu has certainly fallen off the radar in terms of press coverage. I remember back in the day that there were all these "images that were too damning to be made public." Have these images ever been released? If so, where can one get a look at them? |
Torture and humiliation by US soldiers has certainly not fallen off the radar in the Arab world. I think Americans were only interested in them because at the time the majority of the US public was under the delusion that they would 'win'. Now that the majority know they're not going to (even if they can't admit they're going to lose) it's much less interesting. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
I am sorry the US was caught doing it.
The US ought not have done it cause of the political problems it causes for the US.
I am not sorry that insurgents suffered what they did.
It is not like they wouldn't do worse were they to win. |
I'll take this as a, "It is OK for our leaders to set the tone and the example that torture is OK, lie about it and cast a few apples at the bottom of the pail into the trash heap to take the heat off of themselves." |
I will take it that the US ought not to do it cause of the problems it causes, but that it is not a bad thing when Bathists , Al Qaedists or Khomeni followers suffer.
They would do far worse if they won. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| They would do far worse if they won. |
Why can't you grasp how irrelevant this point is? |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| I would beat the holy-living shi-t out of a terrorist detainee if I thought for one second it would help prevent another 9-11 or similar terrorist attack. However, I would not violate someones human rights just for fun... That being said, I am sure I'll get some bad feedback for others posters. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| I would beat the holy-living shi-t out of a terrorist detainee if I thought for one second it would help prevent another 9-11 or similar terrorist attack. However, I would not violate someones human rights just for fun... That being said, I am sure I'll get some bad feedback for others posters. |
Just bear in mind, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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What the heck does that mean? Are you saying that what these terrorists are doing, they are doing for the security of their country?
Last edited by cangel on Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
I am sorry the US was caught doing it.
The US ought not have done it cause of the political problems it causes for the US.
I am not sorry that insurgents suffered what they did.
It is not like they wouldn't do worse were they to win. |
Are you sorry for the Iraqi woman who was photographed while an MP sodomised her in Abu Ghraib? Or are you only sorry that the rapist was caught? |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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The Abu Graibh was nasty, but it was along, long way from being real torture. Saddam the Insane's sons were the real pros. The fed people through woodchippers.
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| cangel wrote: |
| What the heck does that mean? Are you saying that what these terrorists are doing, they are doing for the security of the country? |
Why is it every neo-con/conservative/America first and always so never say nuthin bad about America even when we are wrong!er needs basic English explained to them? |
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