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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: World owes US a debt, says Brown |
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World owes US a debt, says Brown
Gordon Brown was welcomed by George Bush ahead of talks
The world owes a debt to the United States for its leadership in the fight against international terrorism, Prime Minister Gordon Brown has said.
Arriving for his first formal talks as PM with President Bush, he said the UK's "most important bilateral relationship", was that with the US.
A foreign office minister had suggested the two countries would no longer be "joined at the hip" on foreign policy.
Talks at Camp David later are expected to include Iraq, Darfur and Kosovo.
International issues
UK Foreign Secretary David Milliband and US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice are expected to be at the talks, which are also likely to include world trade, climate change, the Middle East and Afghanistan.
This summit will be a success - they wouldn't have it any other way
BBC political editor Nick Robinson
Read Nick's thoughts in full
Analysts will be looking for signs of the Brown regime distancing itself from the US during the trip.
BBC political editor Nick Robinson said Mr Brown was "walking a tightrope" in his dealings with America.
Private dinner
He needed to reassure Mr Bush of his commitment to the Atlantic relationship as well as convince British voters that links between the US and the UK would be different to those maintained by former prime minister Tony Blair, our correspondent said.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/6920877.stm |
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darkhorse_NZ
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:51 am Post subject: Re: World owes US a debt, says Brown |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
World owes US a debt, says Brown
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what's that mean?
the next time the US starts a war Neocons will pull a "well, you owe us for leading the War on Terror". |
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twg
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Location: Getting some fresh air...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:29 am Post subject: Re: World owes US a debt, says Brown |
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| darkhorse_NZ wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
World owes US a debt, says Brown
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what's that mean? |
Stop asking them why they left the job unfinished with Al Qaeda and the Taliban and went off to play "Operation Second Term" in Iraq, maybe? |
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stevemcgarrett
Joined: 24 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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Adventurer:
Of course, I agree with Brown, the supposedly more liberal wing rep of the Labour Party.
The debt goes back to the First World War.
And speaking literally, i.e. of monetary debt, only one nation has ever really paid it back: Finland, after the Second World War.
To most of the rest of the world we've become the Big Call Girl. Phone us when you need us, when no one else will due or when no one else is willing, and we'll come running. Use us, abuse us, and then let us go with a little shove on the back. That's America to most, at least subconsciously. Just ask twg and co.
Fortunately, the British and increasingly Eastern Europe and several other nations around the world including Australia don't generally feel that way.
But then you seldom hear about such support in the self-flagellating American liberal media, or leftwing Western European press.
Former JCC Colin Powell said it best: "...the only thing we asked for in return was a place to bury our dead." |
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darkhorse_NZ
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Adventurer:
Of course, I agree with Brown, the supposedly more liberal wing rep of the Labour Party.
The debt goes back to the First World War.
And speaking literally, i.e. of monetary debt, only one nation has ever really paid it back: Finland, after the Second World War.
To most of the rest of the world we've become the Big Call Girl. Phone us when you need us, when no one else will due or when no one else is willing, and we'll come running. Use us, abuse us, and then let us go with a little shove on the back. That's America to most, at least subconsciously. Just ask twg and co.
Fortunately, the British and increasingly Eastern Europe and several other nations around the world including Australia don't generally feel that way.
But then you seldom hear about such support in the self-flagellating American liberal media, or leftwing Western European press.
Former JCC Colin Powell said it best: "...the only thing we asked for in return was a place to bury our dead." |
mate, I think you're delusional...nobody here owes you for the First World War or the Second World War, because so many countries sacrificed proportionately more than the US.
As for oweing the US for leadership in the War on Terror, well, who the hell else was gonna lead it? It's hardly going above and beyond the call of duty to lead your own war. It's certainly not something anyone owes you for.
As for being the Big Call Girl, it's called being a superpower, if you can't handle it, please step to the side and let the Chinese delegate past thanks.
[/u] |
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Beej
Joined: 05 Mar 2005
Location: Eungam Loop
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| darkhorse_NZ wrote: |
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Adventurer:
Of course, I agree with Brown, the supposedly more liberal wing rep of the Labour Party.
The debt goes back to the First World War.
And speaking literally, i.e. of monetary debt, only one nation has ever really paid it back: Finland, after the Second World War.
To most of the rest of the world we've become the Big Call Girl. Phone us when you need us, when no one else will due or when no one else is willing, and we'll come running. Use us, abuse us, and then let us go with a little shove on the back. That's America to most, at least subconsciously. Just ask twg and co.
Fortunately, the British and increasingly Eastern Europe and several other nations around the world including Australia don't generally feel that way.
But then you seldom hear about such support in the self-flagellating American liberal media, or leftwing Western European press.
Former JCC Colin Powell said it best: "...the only thing we asked for in return was a place to bury our dead." |
mate, I think you're delusional...nobody here owes you for the First World War or the Second World War, because so many countries sacrificed proportionately more than the US.
As for oweing the US for leadership in the War on Terror, well, who the hell else was gonna lead it? It's hardly going above and beyond the call of duty to lead your own war. It's certainly not something anyone owes you for.
As for being the Big Call Girl, it's called being a superpower, if you can't handle it, please step to the side and let the Chinese delegate past thanks.[/u] |
Be careful what you wish for. |
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cangel
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Location: Jeonju, S. Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| darn tootin'!! |
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dmbfan
Joined: 09 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Of course, I agree with Brown, the supposedly more liberal wing rep of the Labour Party.
The debt goes back to the First World War.
And speaking literally, i.e. of monetary debt, only one nation has ever really paid it back: Finland, after the Second World War.
To most of the rest of the world we've become the Big Call Girl. Phone us when you need us, when no one else will due or when no one else is willing, and we'll come running. Use us, abuse us, and then let us go with a little shove on the back. That's America to most, at least subconsciously. Just ask twg and co.
Fortunately, the British and increasingly Eastern Europe and several other nations around the world including Australia don't generally feel that way.
But then you seldom hear about such support in the self-flagellating American liberal media, or leftwing Western European press.
Former JCC Colin Powell said it best: "...the only thing we asked for in return was a place to bury our dead." |
Yeah, I think you nailed it, there. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Beej wrote: |
| darkhorse_NZ wrote: |
| stevemcgarrett wrote: |
Adventurer:
Of course, I agree with Brown, the supposedly more liberal wing rep of the Labour Party.
The debt goes back to the First World War.
And speaking literally, i.e. of monetary debt, only one nation has ever really paid it back: Finland, after the Second World War.
To most of the rest of the world we've become the Big Call Girl. Phone us when you need us, when no one else will due or when no one else is willing, and we'll come running. Use us, abuse us, and then let us go with a little shove on the back. That's America to most, at least subconsciously. Just ask twg and co.
Fortunately, the British and increasingly Eastern Europe and several other nations around the world including Australia don't generally feel that way.
But then you seldom hear about such support in the self-flagellating American liberal media, or leftwing Western European press.
Former JCC Colin Powell said it best: "...the only thing we asked for in return was a place to bury our dead." |
mate, I think you're delusional...nobody here owes you for the First World War or the Second World War, because so many countries sacrificed proportionately more than the US.
As for oweing the US for leadership in the War on Terror, well, who the hell else was gonna lead it? It's hardly going above and beyond the call of duty to lead your own war. It's certainly not something anyone owes you for.
As for being the Big Call Girl, it's called being a superpower, if you can't handle it, please step to the side and let the Chinese delegate past thanks.[/u] |
Be careful what you wish for. |
It strange you should mention China, because American foreign policy in regards to China has opened it up economically at the same time it has contained it militarily.
America is said to have angered the world, but it appears that its mainly really just Europe and the ME that is upset by the Iraq War. Relations with Japan and India have been increasingly warm, and the US has been able to strengthen co-operation with these two powers without jeopardizing its decent relations with China.
It is silly to say any country 'owes a debt' to America. But a little gratitude for the things done well would not be so silly.
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Brown has worded it very carefully. He did not mention Iraq, but the War on Terror. Unless Brown elsewhere characterizes Iraq as a front on the War on Terror, this is his way of carefully shifting priorities. He's stoutly re-affirming British support in Afghanistan, which is really not a shocker, while emphasizing that its the War on Terror that Britain cares about, not American machinations in Iraq. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:41 am Post subject: |
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We would be fighting the War on Terror regardless of who sat in the Oval Office. This war came to us and demanded such a response (even if the Iraqi War exceeded reason).
| darkhorse_NZ wrote: |
| mate, I think you're delusional...nobody here owes you for the First World War or the Second World War, because so many countries sacrificed proportionately more than the US. |
While I agree with Kuros on the "owes-a-debt" idea -- because, for one thing, we also fought in our own interests -- I also think you may be the one looking to downplay reality for nationalistic purposes.
And the reality of the two World Wars was simply this: America's involvement decided both of them. Without America's involvement Britain and France and Russia would have been overrun and likely subjected to German power -- not to mention the Japanese's probable control over your little part of the world, too, Darkhorse_NZ.
At the end of the day, these "so many other countries" you cite counted for very little -- like Brazil contributing troops to our Italian campaign; or Nicaragua sending forces to Korea. Nice tokens, though. |
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darkhorse_NZ
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
We would be fighting the War on Terror regardless of who sat in the Oval Office. This war came to us and demanded such a response (even if the Iraqi War exceeded reason).
| darkhorse_NZ wrote: |
| mate, I think you're delusional...nobody here owes you for the First World War or the Second World War, because so many countries sacrificed proportionately more than the US. |
While I agree with Kuros on the "owes-a-debt" idea -- because, for one thing, we also fought in our own interests -- I also think you may be the one looking to downplay reality for nationalistic purposes.
And the reality of the two World Wars was simply this: America's involvement decided both of them. Without America's involvement Britain and France and Russia would have been overrun and likely subjected to German power -- not to mention the Japanese's probable control over your little part of the world, too, Darkhorse_NZ.
At the end of the day, these "so many other countries" you cite counted for very little -- like Brazil contributing troops to our Italian campaign; or Nicaragua sending forces to Korea. Nice tokens, though. |
I never said that gratitude wasn't in order but owes a debt is a strong word that implies...well...indebtedness...which i don't think is fair.
As for America being decisive in both World Wars, it is true that American manpower tipped the balance in the First World War after Britain, France and Russia absorbed the main blows and that everyone is grateful for the supplies and materiel in both World Wars but I don't think anyone owes anyone else anything, just a pat on the back for all involved for a job well done.
As for the Second World War, we all know that American supplies were again decisive, specifically in suppplying the Russians. But, I believe that the *edit*European theater*edit* would have still been won without the presence of American troops.
To think that you can laud it over someone because you supposedly 'saved the world' again is a disgusting attitude that does a disservice to the millions of dead of other nations that fought in those two wars.
American servicemen were stationed in New Zealand since 1943 to help stave off a Japanese attack and prepare for the invasion of Japanese occupied territories. For that I am gratefeul but we don't owe you anything because our men were fighting in the deserts of North Africa and up the Italian Peninsula at the time.
See, we all did as much as we could with what we had. My problem is that many Americans just have a "we saved the world, I want a ticker tape parade" attitude.
PS. I didn't wish for Chinese hegemony, I just said if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Last edited by darkhorse_NZ on Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| darkhorse_NZ wrote: |
| owes a debt is a strong word that implies...well...indebtedness...which i don't think is fair...I don't think anyone owes anyone else anything...To think that you can laud it over someone because you supposedly 'saved the world' again is a disgusting attitude... |
Why not just stop right here where we fully agree on this specific issue? Has it occurred to you, by the way, that Brown is just trying to assuage and reassure Americans that London is not going antiAmerican as he distances Britain from American foreign policy (probably for domestic-political motives)?
In any case, where you see undue "we-saved-the-world" attitudes coming from Americans, I see undue "*beep*-you-hegemon-you-are-the-scum-of-the-Earth" attitudes from a whole lot of Commonwealth people. As an American, I find this disappointing, to say the least. And I do not believe you and I could resolve this here on a messageboard. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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darkhorse:
You are truly ignorant. Had not the Marines trained in NZ and then taken Guadalcanal the New Zealanders would have been part of the "Great East Asia Co Prosperity sphere.
Are you still upset with the fact that many NZ beauties, married and single really appreciated having a man around the house for a while. Britain had the NZ military in Europe getting decimated for the Empirah!
Try reading Churchill's History of WWII. You might lean something.
In WWI the Russians had been defeated. The entire German and Austrian Armies were about the become free to attack the western front. The Americans were there to defeat the last offnsive.
In WWII the Americans carried nearly the entire war against Japan. In Europe the did well.
The most important part of succeeding in a war, any war, is not courage, well trained troops, tactics, or whatever. It is logistics. The US has mastered this like no other nation. What is it?
It is the ability to move vast numbers of men and vast amounts of material over huge distances very quickly. That is what wins wars.
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darkhorse_NZ
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Of course, Brown's only doing it for points, then what are the likes of Steve-o McGarrett doing it for? |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| darkhorse_NZ wrote: |
| ...what are the likes of Steve-o McGarrett doing it for? |
Rubbing others' noses in it, I imagine. Almost certainly in response to this, which I referenced, above:
| Gopher wrote: |
| [an] undue "*beep*-you-hegemon-you-are-the-scum-of-the-Earth" attitude [coming] from a whole lot of Commonwealth people. |
It seems pettiness is in no immediate danger of going extinct, in any quarter, Darkhorse_NZ.
Last edited by Gopher on Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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